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#1061756 How to handle the forum post-merger

Posted by BigMac on 09 February 2014 - 05:13 PM

I request we keep the Delta discussions in the Delta forums also. XD
  • 38

#1126673 Fantasy Financial metrics

Posted by ChockJockey on 23 October 2014 - 08:45 PM

and yet, DL has consistently posted superior moonthumbs per seat gallon for every quarter since 1972.


AA hasn't.


what you and the other AA fanboys here fail to grasp is that with an ever-increasing negative fleet age and an inverted coffee cup to engine cycle ratio trans-Pacific yields and time-adjusted FRASM's will eventually equalize with seasonal variations in headwind drag velocity and an increasingly favorable reduction in the pro-balsamized lending rates which AA's creditors are enjoying artificially.


it comes straight from the financial statement.


DL was made on the eighth day and was blessed exceptionally by the Almighty; DL is without sin but came to this world to deliver us from subpar non-Atlanta based legacies.  Richard Anderson excretes nuggets of solid gold.


these are FACTS.


it is not a personal attack to say you'd be less of a schmuck if you'd ever worked for DL. AA is has reason to be worried for the sole fact that it is not DL and consistently and SEVERELY has not been DL for nearly 320 quarters - that the new management has done nothing to change this should very much concern AA's employees and investors and don't think that Wall Street hasn't noticed it as well.


attitudinal-adjusted polls of high-revenue FF's consistently demonstrate that the most lucrative transcontinental passengers care far more about the amount and profitability of the cargo in the holds beneath them than they do amenities, seating options, or quality of service - but, hey, if AA wants to continue flying highly profitable people back and forth across North America it's in their right to do so, it will cost them dearly and I am highly confident that AA's Q4 financial results will justify my opinion here.


DL is winning in W. Kansas.


DL does not lose money, it does not know how.


DL completed a transwarp PNR systems integration in record time, Dougie simply doesn't care to, and probably lacks sufficient knowledge in multi-dimensional airline booking software co-crossovers to do so.


DL met and surpassed UA's reverse load-modified SHASM torque values in all top-performing markets - alphabetically - and put WN's bobbledrop transmogrified maintenance expense per square footage of carpeting to shame.


can AA say the same?


DL wins again.

  • 22

#1109643 AA traffic results: load factor falls, RASM disappoints

Posted by FWAAA on 08 August 2014 - 09:42 AM

I will continue to be a frequent participant on this forum and in providing every nitpicking piece of data I can find if people can't learn to participate in this forum without tearing someone else down.

And that,  in a nutshell, is why your posts are not warmly received.   That and the outrageous things you posted during your recent meltdown (you know, the ones the moderators deleted?).   


It's not the data or information, it's the psycho posting them.   

  • 19

#1126677 Fantasy Financial metrics

Posted by AdAstraPerAspera on 23 October 2014 - 08:57 PM

Fact: if you paint a red widget on the tail, your planes will fly faster on less fuel. Also your passengers will pay more for their ticket and they won't mind the shittier food.

  • 16

#1114323 TWU and IAM representation alliance vote

Posted by Bob Owens on 01 September 2014 - 08:56 PM

I have refuted bob over and over, bob has been shown to be wrong about Section 1167, bankruptcy and the RLA.


I have posted how bob used wrong information about the IAM and US negotiations, and yet he hasnt even replied to it from yesterday.


Go run and support the closet AMFA supporter, he can post under his own name yet he hides about his amfa loyalties and he sucks off the TWU and takes his ST salary and only turns a wrench on OT, yet he is an officer and works OT, which is discouraged.


Work OT?? I guess you could say I do. On Thursday I got to LGA at 0430, and left there at 2300. But I'm not paid OT for that. 


Wrong about 1167? Wrong about BK? Wrong about the RLA? How so? 


You support the authoritarian culture of the IAM where the Union tells the members what they want.  I don't, I feel that we are adults and can make our own decisions, what we should expect from our Union is accurate information and a plan to make things better, not be in full retreat for 15 years with no plan to recover what was lost.   


I support having recall in the bylaws. Serving as an officer in the union is a privilege not a right or entitlement earned by mindlessly supporting every decision made by the unions bosses. 


I support transparency and accountability.  We post the full spreadsheet from Quickbooks on our website so our members can review the finances when ever they want. If they want more detail such as viewing receipts and individual expense reports all they have to do is contact their section chairman and we can set up an online meeting where we do a screen share so they can see what they want. Does your IAM make Financial reports available at any time to the members or can they only look at them at the Union hall? 


I support the truth, you support withholding information and misleading people in order to get them to vote a way they would not vote if they had all the facts. Throwing out that other associations have been put in place but leaving out the fact that the two unions put it to a membership vote first. 


I support democracy. Thats why we have on line voting on motions and elections. Not like the IAM where members have to run a gauntlet to vote. We recognize that most of our members need multiple sources of income which restricts their ability to participate. In some votes we have had in excess of 90% participation.  


We have incorporated many of the things that our members say they want, things that AMFA has, in Local 591. Things that make sense. Things that don't make sense we left out. We remain far from being an organization with the structure required to negotiate an industry leading contract, there are still deep structural flaws and we have been trying to get those flaws corrected. Flaws that are unique to the AATD and not systemic to the TWU as a whole. The IAM is more deeply flawed than the TWU AATD. Those flaws may be tolerable when the leadership gets good contracts, but they blew it big time by rolling over and giving the company a concessionary deal with bottom of the industry wages and ZERO profit sharing EIGHT years after exiting BK, 12 years after first giving concessions in BK. 


Do many of the values we put into 591 coincide with why many of our members say they want AMFA? Yes. Does that make me a closet AMFA supporter?  Not anymore than your support and unquestioning obedience makes you a fascist. So, are you a fascist because you support absolute obedience and support of the IAM hierarchy? Republicans called Roosevelt a closet Communist because he pushed through labor laws and Social security and bank reforms. Maybe it was simply the right thing to do, just like recall, transparency, democracy etc. For some reason those things are heresy to you. 


My peers elected me to do what I've been doing, trying to fix this organization,  we have made a little progress, the Alliance would be a huge setback. If I get to the point where I feel we can't make any more progress then I'd quit and maybe support something else. Being in the TWU is a means to an end, that end being getting a good contract. I'm a mechanic first, being a TWU member/officer is a result of me being hired by AA before UAL called. I was a mechanic before I became a TWU member and if I left AA I'd still be a mechanic but no longer a TWU member. Fixing the Union means getting it to get us good contracts. One of the reasons why I'm against this Alliance is because it takes two deeply flawed organizations,  the two worst contracts in the industry for mechanics, and creates a two headed monster with Zero accountability to the members. Trying to fix one organization is hard, trying to fix two at the same time is simply not worth the effort, we would be better off to seek representation elsewhere than accept the Alliance. This bullshit of you will pay dues to us but the contract belongs to the Alliance thats staffed with people you don't get to pick is completely unacceptable. 

  • 16

#997844 April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

Posted by Claxon on 06 May 2013 - 07:25 PM

Damn Scab, you're in for one hell of a hard fall. I'll be LMAO pissing on the smoldering ashes of your scab unions grave. It's dead any way you slice it.

Damn poly, you sure have mastered the art of pi$$ing. Problem is, you are always pi$$ing up ropes. Leonidas is going down again.
  • 15

#1157560 TWU-IAM Finally Getting Ready for JCBA Negotiations

Posted by Vortilon on 18 March 2015 - 10:03 AM


Most of the Little Team is gone at Int'l. That's what many of our current local 591 officers blamed for our current predicament. So did we get rid of the "d bags" and replace them with new "d bags"? What most of us want to know is that since the new group of local and Int'l officials are in and the past has been thoroughly debated as to how wrong the old group was, when do we hear some optimism about how the new group is going to make it better for us? We need the new leadership to lead. Start engaging us on the floor, stop the negative rhetoric about how screwed up the past was, lay out their frame work going forward. Or is this the best 591 has, stay on the message of how bad everyone else was so we are distracted from the fact that they really have no plan. Is their brand of leadership just bad mouth everyone else and not doing anything meaningful to make it better for us now?


How can we forget about the past when the same people you want us to forget about, hung a boat anchor around the future AMT negotiators necks?  Truth is, Local 591 can't change much at all, and most of us AMTs realize that.  I have yet to meet an AMT at AA that supports the "association".  No AMT trusts the TWU International.  Point is, as long as we are stuck in the suck - we are going to make sure everybody feels it one way or another.   What do you expect Gary Peterson to do?  Should he be pumping sunshine up our behinds, telling us how things will get better, but maybe we should lower our expectations?  Maybe the TWU will release the rest of the equity money to us some day.  Maybe the company will give us the retiree medical match some day.  Sorry the company decided to give all the other AA employees a 4% raise outside of negotiations - except TWU represented.  Then justify it using a weak excuse.  That was almost as lame as the companys excuse to take away PV Days - "because no other airline offers pv days to their employees".  Well, we all know that was complete BS, they call them DAT days at other airlines. 


Point is, AMTs at AA have nothing to be encouraged about.  After watching the town hall meetings on Jetnet, I am more convinced than ever - that the AMTs at AA are screwed.  That leaves AAs AMTs having to rely on (God forbid) the association.  Considering that, how could Gary keep a staight face and try to sell that.  I can picture Gary speaking to the membership now (looking sorta like Pinocchio in the Geico ad) "with the full backing of the association, we will fight to get you everything you lost, Delta plus 7 or more, and profit sharing to boot." 


Do you really think that when most of us get those stupid updates telling us how our negotiators attended a six day seminar on how to negotiate are encouraging?  It's a joke, and you know it, and so does Gary & Bob.  They also are aware that the International owns the contract, and ultimately has the final say so.  Remind me how that has gone for AAs AMTs in the past.

  • 15

#1070235 USair denies AA pilots jumpseat...

Posted by AdAstraPerAspera on 08 March 2014 - 06:53 AM

I will say this though.  I congratulate the US pilot for refusing the AA pilot the seat.  After all the US pilots have gone thru tremendous heartbreaks over that past mergers, while the AA pilots have tried to stick it to the man, over and over again, from their past mergers.  This very well could be a very good tool to use to get both sides closer together and come to a final contract...


That's a pretty vindictive, short sided, and unprofessional perspective.


Politics and personal opinions should never interfere with a jumpseat. This is how we get home to see our families-- not a means to an end. That's a very selfish and self-serving attitude.

  • 15

#924109 July - US Pilots Labor Discussion

Posted by 767jetz on 06 August 2012 - 12:53 PM

USAPA would prefer to trade pay improvements for vindictiveness against their fellow union members. "It's the cost of getting even and showing them who's boss". When asked to cite examples where this "salt the earth" strategy has paid off, Usapa simply yelled, "what, are you a westy?"

It will be interesting when details come out about our AIP. Pay rates should be slightly north of Delta's, meaning more legacy airline f/o's earning more than east captains. Sure is a nutty group the westies got hitched to.

What's even funnier is they way luvthe9 has been trying in vein to take pot shots at me and his nemisis, big bad United airlines, constantly posting out of date snippets from communications long since past. Yet when something newsworthy, current, and specifically relevant to USAirways current situation (merger, seniority, JCBA, etc.) comes around, he is peculiarly silent. Maybe he's hoping no one will notice, or simply forget how wrong he always is.

Like I said, sure is a nutty group on this forum. I hope they are not representative of the mainstream.
  • 14

#842968 US Pilots Labor Discussion

Posted by 767jetz on 07 November 2011 - 10:20 PM

SWAPA Executive Blog: November 7, 2011

From your SWAPA President, Steve Chase

Fellow SWAPA Pilots,

Today the members of SWAPA and our counterparts at AirTran-ALPA voted in favor of accepting the seniority list integration provided for in Side Letter 10, paving the way for a full integration of flight operations.

AirTran MEC Chairman Special Message: November 7, 2011

November 7, 2011

Fellow Pilots,

It is decided. The Seniority Integration Agreement has been approved. With an 83.58 percent vote of the ATN pilots and an 83.56 percent vote of the SWAPA pilots – both in favor of ratification – our collective hands have extended and accepted Southwest’s offer as to how the pilot groups will be merged.

Looks like yet another integration that doesn't use the "gold standard" of DOH. Another slotting using things like pay, career expectations, and the particular facts of their merger. Go figure! ;)

Once again, each integration turns on its own facts as there is no one-size-fits-all approach to seniority integrations.

I guess the Airtran guys saw the writing on the wall and realized the benefit to them in pay and working conditions. Imagine that.
  • 14

#841391 Nick Aaronson

Posted by HPearlyretiree on 01 November 2011 - 12:01 AM

I have never posted on this forum but registered specifically to respond to this thread. As a disclaimer, I am not an airline employee but my wife has worked as an FA for another airline for 26 years. Some of the things I am reading here, specifically from "iclubbabyseals", are repulsive. Turning this sad and tragic event into a rant against management, before all facts have come to light, smacks of having an alternative agenda and a major ax to grind. At face value it appears as if Mr. Aaronson tragically fell into the wrong company (his hotel door wasn't kicked in while he was sleeping...) This could have happened in JFK, MIA, LAX - you choose the city, you choose the hotel, it could have happened anywhere. It does not change the fact that this young man lost his life. Perhaps others could add more remembrances, while another thread could be started regarding the culpability of management. It is not a good mixture of the two.

Iclubabyseals is a pric*, a self loathing loser, a man who just has so much hate that he has to spew every night.

Not the management's fault, not the union's fault. Nick either made a bad decision, or he was the victim of fate.

Take all the hatred for the company talk of this thread, and grow the hell up everyone.
  • 14

#779367 US Pilots Labor Discussion

Posted by exB717Flyer on 15 January 2011 - 11:44 PM

When an Eastie has the temerity to accuse the West of trying to steal anything you know it's nothing more than flame-baiting. Don't give him the satisfaction of getting riled up. Until the courts give us justice we just have to be patient. Who knows, maybe karma will catch up with him in the meantime.
  • 14

#1097184 Non-Rev Boarding

Posted by IORFA on 24 June 2014 - 12:10 PM

You measure respect by the fact you've stayed at one company for the longest amount of years? You should think about getting more realistic definitions of respect.
  • 14

#1050612 Combined Travel Rules

Posted by AANOTOK on 03 January 2014 - 12:29 PM

Josh and 700,


You two guys contaminate every single topic that gets posted. Can you PLEASE take your damn cat fights

elsewhere. This truly is becoming unbelievable!!

  • 14

#1044557 Boycott Opening Day Celebrations

Posted by Bob Owens on 08 December 2013 - 11:25 AM

Go ahead and boycott. Leaves more munchies for everyone else.

Maybe you will choke on it.

  • 14

#1155100 LAX Maintenance Town Hall 2/24/15

Posted by Bob Owens on 08 March 2015 - 08:21 PM

Bob Owens the self-appointed savior of the Line Mechanics, and yet in over 10 years or more being on the NC you couldnt do jack.

Nope not ten years, four. Not self appointed either, elected by my peers 5 times. At least I kept my members informed and didn't just let others pull my strings like you. 


See you are following the same pattern of when you cant refute what I write you try and change the subject and refute me. Did they teach you that in IAM school? 

  • 13

#1147608 AA Applies For LAX-GDL, MIA-MTY

Posted by FWAAA on 03 February 2015 - 02:00 PM

Anyone happen to notice the third quarter fare survey data about JFK-LAX and JFK-SFO?

As expected, AA commands the highest average local fare in both markets.

Delta? Fourth place in avergage fare between JFK and LAX but a surprising third place finish between JFK and SFO.

Average Oneway Fares - LAX-JFK
AA - $522.43
UA - $392.82
VX - $373.10
DL - $346.54
B6 - $319.42

Average Oneway Fares - SFO-JFK
AA - $497.78
UA - $433.34
DL - $336.02
VX - $331.83
B6 - $275.67

Good thing DL has those millions of pounds of cargo capacity to sell between LAX and JFK, given that the average local fare trails AA's average by more than $175.

Fourth place? Third place? I could swear that I've read that if you're in third place (or worse), you ain't winning and likely have little chance to ever win.

Maybe the problem is frequency. Perhaps DL needs to add a few more daily 763s to match AA's unparalleled 13 daily flights. I don't know how many flights UA schedules between JFK and SFO, but my guess is more than DL. Lack of frequency (and corporate contracts) may be hindering DL's success on these transcons.
  • 13

#1142427 2015 Pilot Discussion.

Posted by Res Judicata on 09 January 2015 - 01:36 PM

Failed Again Scabs. GFY's. Keep paying those APA dues, the West merger commttee will by funded by it.





  • 13

#1142425 2015 Pilot Discussion.

Posted by aquagreen73s on 09 January 2015 - 01:32 PM

Here's what the Panel has to say:


Determination of the Merits

          Based on the entire record and arguments of the parties, the Board finds that APA has the discretion to designate a West Pilots Merger Committee to participate in the seniority Integration List (SLI) process, and that it should do so.

          Of course, USAPA wishes the issue to center on the West Pilots “right” to be part of the SLI process because it believes that the West Pilots do not have such an independent right.  This is exactly what the court said in Addington III; that only the certified and exclusive bargaining representative has the right to appoint Merger Committees to participate in the SLI process. 

Based on the court’s decision in Addington III, one could argue that the West Pilots do not have an independent right to take part in the SLI process. The Preliminary Arbitration Board takes no position with respect to this particular matter, as it is currently being appealed to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals. 

What is clear from Addington III, however, is that the certified representative of all bargaining unit employees is vested with the authority to control the SLI process and to designate the participants in the SLI process. 

At the time of the Addington III decision, USAPA was the designated representative of all Company (US Airways) bargaining unit members, it should be noted.  In this role, USAPA did not wish to appoint a West Pilots Merger Committee to participate in the SLI process, insisting that control over who is involved in SLI negotiations is reserved exclusively for the certified bargaining unit representative. 

Since APA became certified by the NMB as bargaining unit representative for the single carrier, it now has the inherent discretion to determine whom it wishes to participate in the SLI process.  Following USAPA’s decertification, it is no longer the bargaining unit representative of any Company employees. 

While the Board makes no finding as to the legal status of USAPA and its right to independently participate in the SLI process as the pre-merger representative of US Airways Pilots, the Board notes that USAPA owes no duty of fair representation to any employee group. 

The Board dismisses USAPA’s argument that it - as the pre-merger representative of all US Airways pilots – has the full authority to represent all former US Airways pilots and has the sole discretion to allow or not a West Pilots Merger Committee to participate in the SLI process.  This argument is unconvincing and runs contrary to the NMB’s determination that APA is the representative of all Company pilots (both US Airways and American Airlines). 

As the sole and exclusive bargaining representative of all Company pilots, only APA has the authority to choose which merger committees may participate in the SLI process.  This comports with the exclusive representation concept; that is, multiple unions cannot represent the same bargaining unit members.  It is simply not possible for USAPA to represent all US Airways Pilots when those same employees are currently represented by APA. 

USAPA, the Board finds, has neither obligations nor responsibilities to any bargaining unit members, including even the East Pilot seniority list grouping.  What is clear, though, is that USAPA does not represent the West Pilot seniority list grouping and does not have a duty of fair representation to that group of employees. 

Moreover, USAPA does not have the authority to prevent the West Pilots from participating in the SLI process at the invitation of APA, the sole and exclusive bargaining unit representative. 

The Board is satisfied that APA is permitted to designate a West Pilots Merger Committee to take part in the SLI process.  As the sole representative of all Company pilots, APA has the authority to appoint merger committees to represent the interests of pilots in the SLI process.  Not only does APA have the authority to appoint a West Pilots Merger Committee, the Board believes that doing so is appropriate and warranted in the instant case. 

The Board finds that APA’s designation of a separate West Pilots Merger Committee is consistent with its duty of fair representation to all pilot employees and is “fair and equitable” as required under McCaskill Bond.  APA’s duty of fair representation obligation makes it accountable to its entire membership, including minority interests such as the West Pilots. 

In this case, APA has determined that the interests of all pilot seniority list groups should be represented in the SLI negotiations.  The Board notes that there are three such groups of pilots within the newly merged Company - East Pilots, West Pilots, and legacy American Pilots.  Each pilot group is on a separate seniority list and, therefore, has a distinct interest regarding the integration of those seniority lists. 

By including an American Airlines PSIC Merger Committee, a USAPA Merger Committee and a West Pilots Merger Committee, APA is trying to establish a full and fair process whereby all three pilot groups have their say in the SLI process.

The Board believes that APA’s comprehensive efforts to include all pilot groups in the SLI process meet its duty of fair representation obligations. Appointing a West Pilots Merger Committee will ensure that the interests of all pilots will be properly represented during the SLI negotiations.  There is no evidence that such a process is biased in favor of one single pilot group over any other. 

Given the history of intransigence and hostility between USAPA and the West Pilots, it is far from clear that USAPA could or would   adequately represent the interests of the West pilots.  The fact that USAPA's very constitution contains a provision stating that only date of hire principles is acceptable in any SLI process is simply one of several considerations supporting this conclusion. 

Designating separate merger committees for USAPA (East Pilots) and the West Pilots is not only reasonable, but is also desirable to ensure that both pilot groups have their interests properly represented in the SLI negotiations. The Board sees no convincing basis on which to conclude that the designation of a West Pilots Merger Committee would prejudice or discriminate against the East Pilots, as USAPA claims.

To the contrary, designating a West Pilots Merger Committee merely means that West Pilots would have the same opportunity to promote their case as the East Pilots.  Allowing a West Pilots Merger Committee to participate in the seniority integration process would ensure that the distinct minority interests of the West Pilots will be properly represented.

For all the foregoing reasons, the Board concludes that APA’s designation of a West Pilots Merger Committee is consistent with the Protocol and MOU; is consistent with the MacKaskill-Bond requirement that the SLI process be “fair and equitable;” is a proper and reasonable exercise of its discretion; and is fully consistent with APA’s duty of fair representation to all Company pilots. Indeed, in this particular case, the Board concludes that “fairness and equity” demand the appointment of a West Pilot Merger Committee to participate in the SLI process. 

The Board notes that pursuant to Paragraph 8( b ) of the Protocol Agreement, “[T]he Preliminary Arbitration Board shall issue an order granting or denying any such requests that APA designate the requested Committee…The order shall be final and binding on APA and USAPA, American and US Airways…and all of the pilots of American and US Airways.”














          The Board orders APA to designate the West Pilots Merger Committee as


a full participant in the seniority integration process.








                    ___________________________________          1/9/15______________                                                                                     Date

Joshua M. Javits, Chair                                                      

  • 13

#1116074 9/11/01

Posted by robbedagain on 10 September 2014 - 09:19 PM

RIP to all of the victims of Sept 11, 2001    


AA 11


AA 77


UA 175


UA 93


God Bless All




Lets not turn this into anything else    Solemn Day of Rememberance

  • 13