15-day countdown to strike, night of Aug. 15

[DCAflyer]

I just think it's high time we go back to the old days when FA's were only young single women that were doing the job to have fun flying around for a few years until they moved on and either got married or got moved into a higher paying career. That's just my honest opinion.

Really? Well then it will surprise you to learn that you that the original "stewardesses" were required by law to be registered nurses! It will surprise you, also, that probably 30-40% of flight attendant trainees flunk out of training.

Flight attendants today are highly trained in a very short period of time!

We are trained how to move a bomb to the LRBL (least resistant bomb location) on any given aircraft. That probably won't seem like an important skill to you until you happen to be one of the 175 passengers on a 757 cruising at 35,000 feet when a suspicious device is located.

We are trained how to treat someone for an impailed object. Probably not important to you until you are seated next to a 75-year-old woman who is knitting when the aircraft hits an air pocket and you find yourself with a knitting needle through your splene.

We are trained in CPR and defribulator operation. Again, very unimportant until it is you who finds yourself in cardiac arrest mid-way between HON and LAX.

We are trained how to fight fires. Useless skill unless you are on an A-330 when a lav fire breaks out. Which extinguisher would you use... a total halon or a water extinguisher?

We monitor exit rows to make certain that passengers seated there can handle the responsibility. Doesn't matter if someone with a broken leg is seated there, with crutches pressed against the handle, unless you are one of the 220 people aboard a 767 that catches fire upon a crashing into the Ozarks.

On August 3, 2005, it was completely unimportant to the 297 people who boarded Air France Flight 358 that the flight attendants insisted on compliance with aviation requirements that bags be completely under the seats, not on bulkhead area floors, and not in the aisle... until, of course, the aircraft overran the runway in Toronto and erupted into a ball of flames.

None of this matters... unless you happen to be on an affected flight.

Congratulations on your heterosexuality and the fact that you have a penis. I'm so very happy for you and your parents must be proud. You're still an idiot.

 

[jenny@nw]

I don't disrespect them, I just don't buy that it takes a highly skilled person to do the job. Any job that a high school dropout can be trained to do in a couple weeks, and do it just as productively as a 20 year veteran, is a transitional job by definition. I just think it's high time we go back to the old days when FA's were only young single women that were doing the job to have fun flying around for a few years until they moved on and either got married or got moved into a higher paying career. That's just my honest opinion.

Spoken like a true person that had rarely spent time working customer service jobs. I personaly think it is people like you that need to cross train into other departments to see what it is like.

If you think it's "high time" to go back to the days when flight attendants were only young single women, I say- bring back the "good old days" where we had 4 day layovers in Tokyo, ANC, Germany, ect.--and also bring back the pay which was "liveable" wages.

I urge you to also ask our beloved #1 flight attendant his opinon on this. I'm sure he had been flying before you were born.

 

[PurduePete]

Spoken like a true person that had rarely spent time working customer service jobs. I personaly think it is people like you that need to cross train into other departments to see what it is like.

If you think it's "high time" to go back to the days when flight attendants were only young single women, I say- bring back the "good old days" where we had 4 day layovers in Tokyo, ANC, Germany, ect.--and also bring back the pay which was "liveable" wages.

I urge you to also ask our beloved #1 flight attendant his opinon on this. I'm sure he had been flying before you were born.

Bravo Jenny, and all of the other F/A's that have spoken up and put that cubicle-dweller Finman in his place (he seems like the type who would sit in 1st class and complain about the service during the entire flight :glare: ).

As a striking NW mechanic, I have the utmost respect for the job that you F/A's do; especially during the last few months. Best of luck in your stand against NW management!

 

[nbmcg01]

Ahh, I assume your post was directed at the arrogant Scab Air management pencil pusher finman, than myself? I have an ex-GF that is a flight attendant, and personally know a few more as friends. I am fully aware of the talent in the F/A corps. I support the F/A's and the fight against rogue Scab Air management that thinks all workers and unionists are to blame for the failures of their flawed business plan.

Take care.

Sorry, yes it was directed at Fin"man". His arrogance is only exceeded by his ignorance.

 

[nbmcg01]

I'm certainly not jeoulous. I'm not gay, so I wouldn't make the cut as a male FA. I'm just making an economic observation. You're story kind of supports my assessment that it is a very good lifestyle job, which means there are more poeple that want to do it, which means the supply and demand curve puts the price point at a very low level. I.E., a very easy job that anybody is capable of doiong and that a lot of people want to do should be very low paying positions in a free labor market.

Even God can't argue with ignorance. Just because you perceive the job to be "easy" doesn't make it so. It has its moments (just like ANY job) and most of us enjoy(ed) the flexible working conditions as opposed to being locked into the 9-5 cubicle rut. Your comments reflect some of the same attitude that have prevailed at some airlines in the past few years. What seem to be forgotten is, you get what you pay for. Customer service ratings can directly be tied to the in flight experience. We can "smooth" the frustration of todays travel challenges, calm crowd mentality and most importantly win the customer's loyalty, which directly relates to the bottom line. Or we can undo any good impression that a customer had about the company or service product.

Part of what made the career so attractive is the fact that you worked very hard in "the office", put in your required hours in productive blocks of time, and then were able to leave the "office" knowing that you had done your job (well) and you could enjoy a well balanced family life. There are restrictions on the amount of time you can work at one time, without having adequate rest, because of the physical demands of flying in a pressurized cabin, breathing less that healthy air, across multiple time zones, with people like you. Most of the customers are FANTASTIC but one like you Finman defines the reason f/as earn whatever they can negotiate.

 

[groundcontrol]

Well if you were to make it a low paying position then I doubt "a lot of people would want to do it" now would they?
You been drinking tonight finny? you sure are throwing the gay and woman insults around. Time for NW to start some sensitivity training they can start at the top and work their way down to the peon offices you work in. dang!

Exactly!! The wages would be low enough so there would a supply of people willing to work that is equivelant to the demand for that position. Now you've mastered economics 101.
Actually, yes; quite heavily.

Regardless, I'm just making very factual statements that nobody seems to want to debate directly. I don't do political correctness; that's for my alter ego to worry about.

Are you sober yet finman?
I don't think your economics 101 theory is correct. You say pay less, so no one would want the job, and you are calling this supply and demand?
finny how old are you? Give us a hint... older than Fred Flintstone, younger than Barney Rubble?

 

[finman]

Bravo Jenny, and all of the other F/A's that have spoken up and put that cubicle-dweller Finman in his place (he seems like the type who would sit in 1st class and complain about the service during the entire flight :glare: ).

As a striking NW mechanic, I have the utmost respect for the job that you F/A's do; especially during the last few months. Best of luck in your stand against NW management!

It seems I may have struck a nerve. I appreciate the fact that there is some safety training that prepares FA's in case of an emergency. That doesn't really change the supply vs demand and how that drives the market driven pay rate, but I can see how some would argue that it does differentiate the craft slightly from other land-based jobs.

I actually sit in coach and really appreciate the service that the FAs provide inflight. Their even more important now that liquids can't be brought onboard.

You all don't need to get your panties in a bunch over the gay thing. Obviously, a vast majority of male FA's are gay; it's no big secret. I don't really care one way or the other, I was just making a statement of the obvious. With all the vile stuff you guys spew about other unions, non-union mechanics, management, executives, and everybody else that may not agree with your worldview, I'd think a fairly lame joke related to the obvious demographic makeup of a workgroup would pale in comparison.

Anyway, I think we can let this issue drop; I only brought it up to see if there would be any reasoned responses to my admittedly exaggerated opinion, or if it would just be frothing at the mouth name-calling. Naturally, I got mostly just the latter, which I guess is what I expected.

Quite honestly, this board has gotten very boring. It's the same people saying the same things over and over. There are very few poeple that really dive into issues and make compelling or interesting points on a consistent basis. Some do, but maybe they've grown bored and left already. Lately, it's all just infantile rooting for NWA's demise, which is really quite an ugly display.

 

[finman]

Are you sober yet finman?
I don't think your economics 101 theory is correct. You say pay less, so no one would want the job, and you are calling this supply and demand?
finny how old are you? Give us a hint... older than Fred Flintstone, younger than Barney Rubble?

A little hung over, but sober nonetheless,

Supply and demand determines the price, not the other way around. The price gravitates toward the point where supply is equivelant to demand, wherever that may be. If nobody wants the job, then the price is too low, so prices will have to go up to the point where there are enough poeple willing to work for that price such that labor supply meets the labor demand.

 

[whatkindoffreshhell]

The NW attendants are doing the right thing. For that matter, so are the NW mechs but that group just didn't have enough sway to trigger a shutdown.

This will be a historical event.

And will provide a shot-in-the-arm for organized labor.

NW management has made too many poor decisions since their first threat of BK back in the 90s and they must go.

 

[jenny@nw]

It seems I may have struck a nerve. I appreciate the fact that there is some safety training that prepares FA's in case of an emergency. That doesn't really change the supply vs demand and how that drives the market driven pay rate, but I can see how some would argue that it does differentiate the craft slightly from other land-based jobs.

I actually sit in coach and really appreciate the service that the FAs provide inflight. Their even more important now that liquids can't be brought onboard.

You all don't need to get your panties in a bunch over the gay thing. Obviously, a vast majority of male FA's are gay; it's no big secret. I don't really care one way or the other, I was just making a statement of the obvious. With all the vile stuff you guys spew about other unions, non-union mechanics, management, executives, and everybody else that may not agree with your worldview, I'd think a fairly lame joke related to the obvious demographic makeup of a workgroup would pale in comparison.

Anyway, I think we can let this issue drop; I only brought it up to see if there would be any reasoned responses to my admittedly exaggerated opinion, or if it would just be frothing at the mouth name-calling. Naturally, I got mostly just the latter, which I guess is what I expected.

Quite honestly, this board has gotten very boring. It's the same people saying the same things over and over. There are very few poeple that really dive into issues and make compelling or interesting points on a consistent basis. Some do, but maybe they've grown bored and left already. Lately, it's all just infantile rooting for NWA's demise, which is really quite an ugly display.

It has gotten boring. Some people's replies are very redundant.

This is just a case of the airlines trying to average down the industry wages by using different strategies. Wages are not fixed costs, therefore we workers are being attacked. ((then one wonders who created this enviroment...Gary?...Al?...John...?Doug...?))
Now then one wonders in this oligopily enviroment, why can't they raise prices? Is it because of these numerous new entrants? Perhaps it is time to go and bring back some rediculous strict rules. Maybe bring back the good o'l A scale and B scale system.



Your replies are also flat and redundant too.

Bravo Jenny, and all of the other F/A's that have spoken up and put that cubicle-dweller Finman in his place (he seems like the type who would sit in 1st class and complain about the service during the entire flight ).

As a striking NW mechanic, I have the utmost respect for the job that you F/A's do; especially during the last few months. Best of luck in your stand against NW management!

Well I had the privlidge to work with you folks in some aspect and I got a better appreciation out of what you guys do. Mechanic vs Scabanic? The difference is amazing!

(((Plus of course my better half (who I consider the smarter half) is a MX)))

I'm imagining Finman to be the type that some poor F/A would give a wine bottle to (in appreciation of being a nice smiling personalble non rev) and would turn that F/A in for giving away company monies (what is a wine bottle? 3$---they sell the same stuff at Eden Prairie Liquor Store) and this really happened to someone)

 

[ExAF]

I'm not trying to support old "Finny" in any way shape or form, but trying to make flight atttendants sound "highly trained" is the wrong avenue to make your case. Any 14 year old boy scout is trained in first aid, treating puncture wounds, fighting fires and CPR. FAs are trained from "off the streets" to "in the cabin" in a couple of weeks. Now don't flame me yet...You are invaluable and absolutely necessary to conduct flight operations. You are even more important in the event of an emergency, but the biggest value is customer relations. The cabin crew has the most contact and biggest impact on the customer every day and every flight. Make your case that your experience in dealing with people and keeping the customer happy (or at least calmed down) under any of the many trying circumstances is the value you bring to the company. You don't learn people skills in a couple of weeks. It takes personality and experience to do that. That is what makes you "worth what you can negotiate." OK...flame retardant suit on. Fire away.

 

[finman]

I'm not trying to support old "Finny" in any way shape or form, but trying to make flight atttendants sound "highly trained" is the wrong avenue to make your case. Any 14 year old boy scout is trained in first aid, treating puncture wounds, fighting fires and CPR. FAs are trained from "off the streets" to "in the cabin" in a couple of weeks. Now don't flame me yet...You are invaluable and absolutely necessary to conduct flight operations. You are even more important in the event of an emergency, but the biggest value is customer relations. The cabin crew has the most contact and biggest impact on the customer every day and every flight. Make your case that your experience in dealing with people and keeping the customer happy (or at least calmed down) under any of the many trying circumstances is the value you bring to the company. You don't learn people skills in a couple of weeks. It takes personality and experience to do that. That is what makes you "worth what you can negotiate." OK...flame retardant suit on. Fire away.

Great post, ExAF. That is the kind of critical thinking I was hoping for. You may very well be correct, that the customer service abilities that the experienced FA attains put the position in a higher status than I had alluded to. I don't know if that is necessarily the case, but the case can certainly be made. As you state, the customer service angle has a lot more merit than the training/safety aspect of the job.

 

[nbmcg01]

Great post, ExAF. That is the kind of critical thinking I was hoping for. You may very well be correct, that the customer service abilities that the experienced FA attains put the position in a higher status than I had alluded to. I don't know if that is necessarily the case, but the case can certainly be made. As you state, the customer service angle has a lot more merit than the training/safety aspect of the job.

I believe customer service is exactly what I mentioned in a prior post. While it is not the primary reason we are on board, (according to the FAA) it is the most valuable reason (to the Company. Just because the training is relatively short, it is the other skills acquired BEFORE being hired that make up a great f/a. Never devalue someone's craft unless you've walked a million miles or more in their shoes.

 

[finman]

I'm imagining Finman to be the type that some poor F/A would give a wine bottle to (in appreciation of being a nice smiling personalble non rev) and would turn that F/A in for giving away company monies (what is a wine bottle? 3$---they sell the same stuff at Eden Prairie Liquor Store) and this really happened to someone)

Why would I do that? I know that token offerrings are very good for business, especially when they come at very little cost. In fact, I was once given a bottle of wine on a non-rev flght back from our honeymoon in CUN. I was very appreciative, and would never have even thought of doing what you menioned.

 

[JAMAKE1]

You know what Finman, your postings really made YOU lose credibility and furthermore reflects your arrogance and your OWN narrow lenses through which you view the world at large. Do you know what you lack, Finman...that many flight attendants possess? EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE. You make references to labor's narrow world view, yet your postings reflect the same narrowness. So you may know what "S" curves and max points are, and you may be great at budgeting and analysizing numbers, but know what, whoopty ####! LIFE isn't about sitting in a cubical all day long and analysizing numbers. Life is about RELATING TO PEOPLE. Success is about having the right knack for diplomacy, and knowing when to exert your personal power, and when to remain passive. Or knowing WHEN to open your mouth, and WHEN to keep it shut. Success comes from finding that perfect equalibrium.

I used to have an inferiority complex whenever I brushed up against the likes of people like you because I did not have a college degree. About 5 years ago I went back to school and decided to be a business major. I then felt inferior because I perceived my fellow classmates as being smarter and better-equipped than I was. But you know something? That was my own FLAWED thinking. I worked my ass off doing the math curve from beginning algebra all the way to higher level second-semester calculus (while flying full time). The most important lesson I learned in that experience was realizing that I have WORTH, whether or not I choose to further educate myself. Taking finance and accounting classes, and higher level math courses helped me to correct my own FLAWED thinking about myself. So I jumped through a few extra hoops, BIG DEAL! At the end of the day, what matters is how I RELATE TO PEOPLE! It's about having that ability... and the saavy...to diffuse difficult and confrontational situations. It's about possessing the charisma to lead 14 crewmembers on a 747 when the aircraft has a mechanical delay and passengers want to know if their wheelchairs are going to be waiting to take them to their connecting flight, or the other 300+ customers are asking if their bags will make it to their next flight, or the man sitting in 42J is complaining of heart attack symptoms, or having to tell the highest-status mileage customer that his special vegan vegetarian meal was not boarded, or having to sooth over ruffled feathers because the full-fare firt class passenger in 2A's individual video screen has malfunctioned.

Shortly after completing the math and business prereqs, I took a 4-year voluntary furlough from my job as a flight attendant so I could continue school full time and finish my undergrad. Things didn't quite work out because I was recalled back to work, two years into my voluntary furlough. During that time I went to work as an Executive Assistant for a CEO of a small company (his company). I felt so inferior because he was a high-achieving, type-A workaholic with a Ph.D in Clinical Psychology. But you what, Finman? He was a wretched individual. He would piss off his employees (psychologists) that were working for him. (His behavior is analogous to the bad-apple flight attendant who delights in telling the customer, "NO!"). So this highly educated CEO behaved like moron. He would piss off his employees (who were making him lots of money), he would reveal confidential details to me about the patients he saw privately, he would disrespect women by berating them in front of myself and others, AND he would lie.

I really GOT my worth working for this CEO. For the first time, I gave his company a face for GOOD customer service. I was the one that his employees would call when they need ed something, because they did not want to interact with HIM. I was the one that finally had to set a few boundaries with this moron, because heretofore, nobody else ever had the balls to tell this guy that he was an ASS! I had to educate him on a few things, such as being NICE doesn't mean one has to surrender one's power.

I am not sharing this long-winded posting in order to toot my own horn, Finman (believe me, I know MY WORTH). I am sharing it because as a "numbers guy", I want you to understand that there is VALUE, in hiring (and paying) people who possess a unique skill-set to calmly, yet properly prepare a Boeing 747 for an emergency evacuation. There IS value in paying somebody to diffuse the ruffled feathers of the passenger in 2A whose movie screen is broken (and who provides a lot of revenue to the company). There is VALUE in paying somebody who possesses the leadership skills and charisma to manage all of the tiny little fires that flare up on a fairly routine basis.

I know that EMOTIONAL INTELLIGENCE cannot be quantified in a way that "numbers guys" can understand. Chances are, the pizza-delivery boy doesn't have to expend the same level of inner resources, that say, a flight attendant may have to. Chances are, a waitress isn't going to grab the AED off the kitchen wall and start doing chest compressions. Chances are, these aforementioned employees, do not have to endure lenghthy extentions to their duty day (the restaurant STILL closes at 10 pm). Chances are, long UNPAID sit-times are not incorporated into their working schedule. So please, Mr. Finman, do not EVER compare what I do as a United Airlines Purser and flight attendant, to that of a pizza delivery boy or a waitress turning tables. Thank you.