It's not rhetoric, and it's factually accurate. I know they would start on the A320. But they figured their upgrade opportunity would be on the E-190, and therefore they'd be better off staying at Comair. What color is the sky in your world, anyway?eagleflip said:
-190 Pay Rates
- Thread starter bluetoad
- Start date
hoookay, so let's see if I have this right.
A Comair guy, who has a chance to work at JB starting, oh, on Aug 1 04, turns it down because he figures his upgrade would be to an EMB and it wouldn't be worth the change.
First, every single management type has said that no upgrades will be forced on anyone. Thus, a person hired in Aug 04 would be able to upgrade to an Airbus in about two years, making (at that point) about $115 an hour.
I'd buy it if you said that they didn't want to commit to JB because of potential difficulties with a starti[ airline, or due to a better quality of life at Comair. But don't use the EMB pay issue as the reason. That's simply a red herring and disingenuous.
A Comair guy, who has a chance to work at JB starting, oh, on Aug 1 04, turns it down because he figures his upgrade would be to an EMB and it wouldn't be worth the change.
First, every single management type has said that no upgrades will be forced on anyone. Thus, a person hired in Aug 04 would be able to upgrade to an Airbus in about two years, making (at that point) about $115 an hour.
I'd buy it if you said that they didn't want to commit to JB because of potential difficulties with a starti[ airline, or due to a better quality of life at Comair. But don't use the EMB pay issue as the reason. That's simply a red herring and disingenuous.
You had your chance, Fubi, and were wisely shown the door.
As for the $115, how much do you want? How much do you need? Is it appropriate to earn so much that you put your employer out of business?
In all reality, at the nominal 83 hour month, a 2 year JB Capt averages $120 an hour with overguarantee pay. What do the other 2 year Captains make in this industry?
I did an comparison average of LCC pay a couple of weeks ago, ranging from Spirit (low side) to Southwest (high side) on comparable airframes. The average for 5 and 12 year Captains was revealing, with JB's pay about 2 bucks an hour low at 5 years and 4 bucks an hour higher at 12 years. Not bad for a carrier not yet 5 years old to begin with.
As for the $115, how much do you want? How much do you need? Is it appropriate to earn so much that you put your employer out of business?
In all reality, at the nominal 83 hour month, a 2 year JB Capt averages $120 an hour with overguarantee pay. What do the other 2 year Captains make in this industry?
I did an comparison average of LCC pay a couple of weeks ago, ranging from Spirit (low side) to Southwest (high side) on comparable airframes. The average for 5 and 12 year Captains was revealing, with JB's pay about 2 bucks an hour low at 5 years and 4 bucks an hour higher at 12 years. Not bad for a carrier not yet 5 years old to begin with.
Well, I guess one only "needs" around $12,000/yr or so. The rest can be made up with food stamps, WIC, and other forms of public assistance.eagleflip said:
Oh... wait... even better! Maybe pilots should pay jB for the honor of being able to build up their turbine time on jB aircraft!
Ok, I'll admit it. That is a tough question to answer.
I suppose that if you are satisified with the potential pay, you'll apply to the company. If not, you will look for work elsewhere.
Despite my curt words in prior posts, best of luck to all.
I suppose that if you are satisified with the potential pay, you'll apply to the company. If not, you will look for work elsewhere.
Despite my curt words in prior posts, best of luck to all.
Lets not forget that about 30 years ago, an airline with 3 airplanes and a new way of thinking was formed, and now is the leading candidate (along with the others like JBLU and AirTran) to kick the pants off any major out there, and they are some of the highest paid pilots in the country.
MadDog: With all due respect, anybody at CMR that was offered a job at JBLU and thinks that they will do better at CMR is smoking some very illegal substance....going forward, I only see the pay at any DAL owned company going down by about 20%, and that is for openers.
Remember...the pay at JBLU can only go up, the pay at other legacy carriers can and will continue to come down.
Rest assured, economics being what they are will assure that when supply and demand equal, we will reach a level of compensation which the market will support. When that happens and we get some yield improvement maybe we will see salaries improve.
Boomer
MadDog: With all due respect, anybody at CMR that was offered a job at JBLU and thinks that they will do better at CMR is smoking some very illegal substance....going forward, I only see the pay at any DAL owned company going down by about 20%, and that is for openers.
Remember...the pay at JBLU can only go up, the pay at other legacy carriers can and will continue to come down.
Rest assured, economics being what they are will assure that when supply and demand equal, we will reach a level of compensation which the market will support. When that happens and we get some yield improvement maybe we will see salaries improve.
Boomer
ELP_WN_Psgr
Senior
- Nov 29, 2003
- 419
- 0
From a business point of view, it is hard to fault Neeleman's decision to pay the E-190 pilots the lowest amount he can get away with without having every ALPA organizer in the country successfully getting every pilot at the company to sign up to hold an election for representation.
From a different angle, though, I would comment that paying people the least you can get away with usually fails to pay long term dividends.
If I were running JetBlue, would I have set the E-190 standard at the proposed levels? No, I think they whould have been a little higher, but what do I know? I wouldn't have bought a second fleet type.
From a different angle, though, I would comment that paying people the least you can get away with usually fails to pay long term dividends.
If I were running JetBlue, would I have set the E-190 standard at the proposed levels? No, I think they whould have been a little higher, but what do I know? I wouldn't have bought a second fleet type.
eagleflip said:
First, is this the same managment who, when jetBlue first started, told all of the original hires that they would be kept at pay parity with Southwest? If so, I wouldn't believe much of what they tell you.
Second, I suppose it would depend on how senior the Comair guys were. They can make $113/hr on an airplane much smaller than the A320 or E190. Also, they may not expect the 2-year Airbus upgrades to continue. I know a guy who was hired at JB 6 months ago, and he says it's looking like 2.5 years to upgrade, and that his first opportunity for captain would be on the Embraer.
Of course, I don't know for sure if the E190 rates were their sole reason for turning down the offer. They may have other personal reasons too, but that's what was communcated to me.
As for Delta subsidiaries taking cuts, the Connection carriers are profitable, and aren't expected to give up pay. Also, they may not be wholly-owned Delta subsidiaries for long. Expect an IPO a la CAL & Express Jet.
The reference to parity with Southwest pay was actually made with a caveat: JetBlue would keep pace with Southwest, but would pay at a lower percentage of the SW wage, typically mentioned at 80%.
If you extrapolate the JB 13 year Capt pay with a nominal 83 hour month (with overguarantee pay), you go from 139 an hour to the actual average pay of 149.89. A 13 year SW Capt makes $179, 80% of which is $143. Sooo, our Capts will indeed be on parity (albeit at the 84th percentile) of the SW pay.
All this, and remember that the airline is only 5 years old thus far. Pay increases will inevitably occur.
Further, a Comair pilot can only make $112 an hour after flying for Comair for at least 17 years...let's compare apples to apples. These pay scales must be compared with equivalent years of service.We'll figure out what the JetBlue 17 year Captain makes in about another 12 years...
If you extrapolate the JB 13 year Capt pay with a nominal 83 hour month (with overguarantee pay), you go from 139 an hour to the actual average pay of 149.89. A 13 year SW Capt makes $179, 80% of which is $143. Sooo, our Capts will indeed be on parity (albeit at the 84th percentile) of the SW pay.
All this, and remember that the airline is only 5 years old thus far. Pay increases will inevitably occur.
Further, a Comair pilot can only make $112 an hour after flying for Comair for at least 17 years...let's compare apples to apples. These pay scales must be compared with equivalent years of service.We'll figure out what the JetBlue 17 year Captain makes in about another 12 years...
luv2fly
Veteran
jbu320
Member
This is hearsay. The actual upgrade time is around 14 months now. If you want to hold out and bid for a specific base other than JFK, it may take 2.5 years but for the junior CA. it is not an accurate representation of upgrade time.MadDogMike said:
So being 16 to 20% below Southwest is "parity"? Not in my book. Also, SWA is due for a raise in September. Their new pay rate will be between $186 and $197/hr, depending on profit margin.eagleflip said:
And don't bank on the expectation that "pay raises will inevitably occur." Not unless you have the legal right to a seat a the negotiating table, which you don't. Otherwise, don't hold your breath.
Yes, I'm aware that comparing Comair rates to JB rates is apples to oranges. My point was to explain why these two Comair pilots decided to turn down the JB offer. But for god's sake, it's a regional airline that flies mostly 50-seat jets! Despite what management & Wall Street might want to call it, a 100-seat jet with 2000+ NM range is NOT an RJ! It should pay like a "mainline" jet, but Mr. Neeleman has decided to pay bottom-of-the-barrel RJ rates. Don't be an enabler.
MadDog:
Eagleflip is not enabling the management of jetBlue as you so accuse. He's trying to provide you his reading of the tea leaves based on his own first-hand experiences with jetBlue management and flying the line for jetblue. The best you can offer is second-hand information yet somehow you come across as the one who has some kind of moral high ground on this issue.
Look your input has been noted, along with several other off-line pilots who share your short-term view of what may or may not happen at jetBlue in the next 12-24 months. Eagleflip and some others at jetBlue are taking a longer perspective on this and giving it some more time before pulling the fire handle.
I am continually amazed by the many voices which come out of the woodwork to either say jetBlue is still just a start-up enjoying its honeymoon, or that jetBlue should be paying its employees like every other legacy carrier that's been in business for the last 60+ years. You good folks need to make up your minds which standard you want to hold jetblue to and not get yourselves worked up about the evils of this or any other airline. If someone wants to argue that jetblue is leading the way to bringing down the hard fought pay and benefits earned by generations of other "professional" airline pilots, then you might as well condemn everyone else while you're at it since just about all pilot groups have arguably contributed to that end in the last three years.
Eagleflip is not enabling the management of jetBlue as you so accuse. He's trying to provide you his reading of the tea leaves based on his own first-hand experiences with jetBlue management and flying the line for jetblue. The best you can offer is second-hand information yet somehow you come across as the one who has some kind of moral high ground on this issue.
Look your input has been noted, along with several other off-line pilots who share your short-term view of what may or may not happen at jetBlue in the next 12-24 months. Eagleflip and some others at jetBlue are taking a longer perspective on this and giving it some more time before pulling the fire handle.
I am continually amazed by the many voices which come out of the woodwork to either say jetBlue is still just a start-up enjoying its honeymoon, or that jetBlue should be paying its employees like every other legacy carrier that's been in business for the last 60+ years. You good folks need to make up your minds which standard you want to hold jetblue to and not get yourselves worked up about the evils of this or any other airline. If someone wants to argue that jetblue is leading the way to bringing down the hard fought pay and benefits earned by generations of other "professional" airline pilots, then you might as well condemn everyone else while you're at it since just about all pilot groups have arguably contributed to that end in the last three years.
Yes good point. And in fact if the E-190 lives up to its hype it will have seat mile costs 30-60% lower than 50 seat RJs, which would make being a Delta Express pilot in, say, BOS, or whatever city JB decides to use them in an iffy career--maybe that's why we're hearing so much noise on this subject.
