2014 Fleet Service Discussion

[PHXConx]

Honestly, how can anyone really call this TA a great thing?  The wage was a 3% increase over the last two years for anyone not topped out.  They lied out their arses about everything else and ended up agreeing with management to keep the bankrupt agreement going. No new holidays, no new vacation for anyone unless you have 25 years, still pegged us with half sick time. Lied about bringing our pension back up to where it was and finally submitted to management to only give us a dime.  A effing dime?  Are you impressed with $51 a month?  I hope you aren't part time either because you would get a whopping $36 a month now IF the IAM doesn't discredit you for not working 31 hours. They agreed with management to forget about the wage progression scale and it still takes the 13th year to get to top out.  No profit sharing but we knew that.   The only thing that they actually negotiated was they exchanged our work in several stations so the TWU members can work our work, for the scope for the 12 or so stations that need it.   That I can understand just to cover the folks we have but it was a cost neutral exchange and those stations should thank the stations that will be cross utilized for subsidizing things for them.  They bypassed a fence agreement and took away our exclusive rights to the work but, again, I understand that but other than tossing in the health care for the topped out guys, and the scope exchange, they did nothing.  The only cost positive negotiations they did was bump the union positive space up to 7 union officials instead of 5.   The bankruptcy is 10 years ago and this is now the second IAM contract and we still have half sick time, no more holidays,  a wage that is still the lowest among legacies, and "See Management" health care, and a wage progression to the 13th year,  part timers getting hosed and subsidizing topped out workers pay/health.  I mean, c'mon maaannnnn!
 
Sure, I can use the extra $3 bucks but on the dime of those without seniority and part timers,  that's the cost.  God bless any part timer who votes for this.  Topped out agents need to thank the part timers and those who didn't get the 10% pay raise for subsidizing them. I know I will once this passes.

you only hope that you can get a bit of instant gratification from those not here long enough to know what you say is a bunch of hooey the problem though timmy is that as people stay here longer they realize what a joke you are...  
 
this is the third rail of any industry dont screw with the seniority. I dont have to thank the junior people who werent even here when i started... They have to thank me for my hard work and sweat, and when they put in the same work then they can be rewarded for their seniority... seniority has its privileges 
 
 you may think you can get votes by using class warfare against the work force... but in the end as people grow seniority they will see right through you... 

 

[Tim Nelson]

i think a little healthy competition is a good thing, many fortune 500 companies do similar things... we already have score cards about the hubs, why not reward success when its due?  

Don't be surprised if the competition changes, i.e., instead of the company appeasing topped out agents and effing part time and lower seniority peeps, to the company shifting to where the votes are and appeasing TWU over you next time.   

One thing that is going to become an issue is the IAMPF.  WeAAsles thinks just because he has a beach body that he can kick sand in my face and be a beach bully.  But I don't know very many TWU members thrilled about approving any TA that forces an IAMPF at them and I know myself and others at IAM like the idea of a 3 prong retirement since we are stuck with the IAMPF.   So, it will be a very hard sell to the members if this retirement situation doesn't improve upon BIGTIME in a next ta.  They will get this TA passed, not sure if Pat is right about the 90% but I bet he is pretty damn close to that figure, the next one better be a helluva lot better than this mess which still hammers part timers and has them subsidizing mine and others pensions and benefits.

 

[Tim Nelson]

you only hope that you can get a bit of instant gratification from those not here long enough to know what you say is a bunch of hooey the problem though timmy is that as people stay here longer they realize what a joke you are...  
 
this is the third rail of any industry dont screw with the seniority. I dont have to thank the junior people who werent even here when i started... They have to thank me for my hard work and sweat, and when they put in the same work then they can be rewarded for their seniority... seniority has its privileges 
 
 you may think you can get votes by using class warfare against the work force... but in the end as people grow seniority they will see right through you... 

Geez,  your elitist attitude shines through in that post.  As far as votes, voting is over.  What do you think you are going to get in a joint agreement now?  The company isn't concerned about the TWU health insurance since it sucks already but it got your health insurance and neither of us have any  idea about it since our health insurance will be "See Management", part time issues were NOT handled.  Pension was NOT addressed...oops I forgot the dime they got [Good grief],  overtime was not addressed, and you still get pegged with half a sick day.  And you still got goosegged on holidays, and you now are burdened with a bankrupt AMR agreement that has terrible scope.   What exactly is it that you like in this contract, obviously you must be topped out and like $23, is there anything else?
 
Or let me put this another way, why would the company even bother coming together for a joint contract since it got the health care issue resolved and bypassed a fence agreement and went right to cross utilization? You know who got screwed in this deal more than anyone, the TWU members but they don't know it.  They will burn with that terrible TWU contract for years to come unless more concessions are reached.

 

[Tim Nelson]

You know PHX not to knock your idea but well I'm not too crazy about it. The thing is that were not kids anymore and the whole idea of giving me prizes to work harder just doesn't sit well with me. The first thing that came across my mind when I read your idea was the trained monkey dancing for the organ grinder hoping to get a banana.

I'll tell you the things that would make me happier at work and a little more motivated. Don't harass and nit pick at me for every little ridiculous item (IE: Sick occurrences, lanyards, hats, etc) Get me the help and equipment I need to do my job properly and if they can't then don't bother me about my work.

And here's a biggie. When we go into JCB talks don't stonewall it for years and make me realize that it's still the same old same old. Get it done. Great pay and benefits will have me singing a Brady Bunch tune every day.

Sorry on your idea man but I'm just too old to be hopscotching anymore.

"we could pit the hubs vs each other"

I think we've already had too many years of the company pitting us against each other, wouldn't you say?

   

How about you start thinking about why the company would even bother wanting to sign a joint contract quickly when the IAM blew right by a fence agreement and handed the company cross utilization?  That's the 'golden slipper' in any merger.  Why would the company bother now?  I know you have the beach body we all want but let me test your wits now.
You don't know it, but you guys at the TWU got hosed with this TA.  I'd say topped out full timers at US AIRWAYS came out better than TWU or lower seniority, or any part timer.  Seniority to boot!

 

[Tim Nelson]

Cross Utilization = Game over for Joint talks
 
When the IAM bypassed a fence agreement and plunged right into the company's hand with cross utilization, why on earth would management even need a joint contract at this point?  Blowing the joint contract leverage wad on this contract and not getting squat in return other than for us topped out folks is ridiculous.

 

[Tim Nelson]

"The problem with most every union today is that the leaders have accepted
the false reality created by corporate America.
Labor is in need of a radical shift in this country.
Our labor leaders don't believe any more."

 

[PHXConx]

Geez,  your elitist attitude shines through in that post.  As far as votes, voting is over.  What do you think you are going to get in a joint agreement now?  The company isn't concerned about the TWU health insurance since it sucks already but it got your health insurance and neither of us have any  idea about it since our health insurance will be "See Management", part time issues were NOT handled.  Pension was NOT addressed...oops I forgot the dime they got [Good grief],  overtime was not addressed, and you still get pegged with half a sick day.  And you still got goosegged on holidays, and you now are burdened with a bankrupt AMR agreement that has terrible scope.   What exactly is it that you like in this contract, obviously you must be topped out and like $23, is there anything else?
 
Or let me put this another way, why would the company even bother coming together for a joint contract since it got the health care issue resolved and bypassed a fence agreement and went right to cross utilization? You know who got screwed in this deal more than anyone, the TWU members but they don't know it.  They will burn with that terrible TWU contract for years to come unless more concessions are reached.

 
 
Elitist lol isnt that name calling mister dont call me names?
 
yea cause what i want out of my union leaders are people that give the farm away for votes by the junior people that may or may not be here in a year... so lets reward them and screw the senior people who have been here for decades.  
 
we see your true colors timmy anything for a vote, even screwing over those here the longest... 
 
this election may be over but you didnt take long to start on your next failed campaign.. 

 

[charlie Brown]

Cross Utilization = Game over for Joint talks
 
When the IAM bypassed a fence agreement and plunged right into the company's hand with cross utilization, why on earth would management even need a joint contract at this point?  Blowing the joint contract leverage wad on this contract and not getting squat in return other than for us topped out folks is ridiculous.

Tim
I have to disagree with you ( surprise surprise ) on the joint talks. One of the issues the company had with us getting the scope we wanted was that we wouldn't want to negotiate a joint agreement. They are the ones that proposed we go back into talks in 30 days, not us. I think us getting the scope we got, gives us huge leverage in jcba. Especially since it doesn't have any drop dead date on it. But one of the final things we agreed to to seal up the scope was to agree to joint talks starting in 30 days.

 

[charlie Brown]

Also your wrong again on us not taking care of the raise issue for everyone for 2013 and 2014. That's what the signing bonus was for, was to make up for the raise that we didn't get in 2013.

 

[Tim Nelson]

Tim
I have to disagree with you ( surprise surprise ) on the joint talks. One of the issues the company had with us getting the scope we wanted was that we wouldn't want to negotiate a joint agreement. They are the ones that proposed we go back into talks in 30 days, not us. I think us getting the scope we got, gives us huge leverage in jcba. Especially since it doesn't have any drop dead date on it. But one of the final things we agreed to to seal up the scope was to agree to joint talks starting in 30 days.

The problem is that we are in the minority. The TWU will definitely want a joint agreement and the majority will decide.  The company didn't want to give scope for the RNO's JAX, etc but the tradeoff for cross utilization, and the agreement that they didn't have to insource IAH or any other available station,  became too enticing for them to pass it up.  In other words, they can live with the few small stations they have to keep open since the fence agreement was bypassed and things went straight to cross utilization mode. 
 
Obviously, that's something the company can live with.  But so can our small stations.  The TWU will have more reason to press for a joint contract [unless one is a sorry part timer at US AIRWAYS that got hammered by the IAM once again] than the company.
 
Just my opinion but the cross utilization definitely was the 'Golden Slipper" and got someone in management a bonus.

 

[robbedagain]

cb  when you folks go into talks for jcba  I hope you can ask for wages somewheres in the neighborhood of btwn DL and SWA top scale    but I also hope you folks keep the scope or if possible even enhance it more in the JCBA  

 

[WeAAsles]

Tim
I have to disagree with you ( surprise surprise ) on the joint talks. One of the issues the company had with us getting the scope we wanted was that we wouldn't want to negotiate a joint agreement. They are the ones that proposed we go back into talks in 30 days, not us. I think us getting the scope we got, gives us huge leverage in jcba. Especially since it doesn't have any drop dead date on it. But one of the final things we agreed to to seal up the scope was to agree to joint talks starting in 30 days.

The problem with Tim and some other people is that they want to view the world through either comparisons or eyes on the past. The way I gauge a contract is for me personally. Is it something that "I" can live with? The contract I have at this moment is something I can live with.

Even if we didn't get a JCBA by the end of this agreement (I think we will long before that) we will be at a BASE pay rate for topped out FT clerks of at least $52,000 per year without any OT or extra hours worked and not counting the value of our benefits. Again something I can live with.

We also have some very good baselines in each others contracts that can provide us both room for improvements. And don't get me wrong there are areas that need improvement, but the jumping off point we have right now for that is very good.

 

[charlie Brown]

The problem is that we are in the minority. The TWU will definitely want a joint agreement and the majority will decide.  The company didn't want to give scope for the RNO's JAX, etc but the tradeoff for cross utilization, and the agreement that they didn't have to insource IAH or any other available station,  became too enticing for them to pass it up.  In other words, they can live with the few small stations they have to keep open since the fence agreement was bypassed and things went straight to cross utilization mode. 
 
Obviously, that's something the company can live with.  But so can our small stations.  The TWU will have more reason to press for a joint contract [unless one is a sorry part timer at US AIRWAYS that got hammered by the IAM once again] than the company.
 
Just my opinion but the cross utilization definitely was the 'Golden Slipper" and got someone in management a bonus.

Iah was the only city that currently would be brought back in. We checked to see how many had recalls for there and it was just a few. I guess we will just disagree in the scope. I think we have a huge advantage now in joint talks that we wouldn't have had otherwise if we hadn't sealed up that scope. The company will want is to move off of it I'm sure in joint talks. To get us to move, assuming that we would, they would have to make the offer very sweet. We wouldn't have had this leverage if we didn't get that scope. As far as the TWU having the numbers. Not true. We will have equal numbers in negotiations. Actually we will control things the first 2 years. Because the president of the IAM will lead things the first two years.

 

[charlie Brown]

cb  when you folks go into talks for jcba  I hope you can ask for wages somewheres in the neighborhood of btwn DL and SWA top scale    but I also hope you folks keep the scope or if possible even enhance it more in the JCBA

Robbed
Seriously?? How much more can scope be enhanced than it is now? As far as wages, I agree. We are the biggest carrier in the world. We should get leading wages. But wages aren't everything, it's the total value of the contract that counts.

 

[WeAAsles]

The problem is that we are in the minority. The TWU will definitely want a joint agreement and the majority will decide.

What majority Tim? You have read how the seniority is going to integrated right? We will be voting on a JCBA as one group. No majorities or minorities.

The company didn't want to give scope for the RNO's JAX, etc but the tradeoff for cross utilization, and the agreement that they didn't have to insource IAH or any other available station,  became too enticing for them to pass it up.  In other words, they can live with the few small stations they have to keep open since the fence agreement was bypassed and things went straight to cross utilization mode. 
 
Obviously, that's something the company can live with.  But so can our small stations.  The TWU will have more reason to press for a joint contract [unless one is a sorry part timer at US AIRWAYS that got hammered by the IAM once again] than the company.

You have stations that will remain open and we have stations that we want to see reopen. For now a temporary hold has been placed for where we are right now. My guess will be ultimately scope falls somewhere between where you are going to be and our language now?
 
Just my opinion but the cross utilization definitely was the 'Golden Slipper" and got someone in management a bonus.

Everyone looks like they got something and it also looks like there are enough carrots on sticks to want to get everyone sitting in a room and talking?