2015 Pilot Discussion.

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cactusboy53 said:
Riiiight. That's why it's still the ONLY list recognized by the company. That's why the company AND APA insisted that the West have a seat at the SLI table. That's why the APA sees the need & wisdom of using the Nicolau Seniority List as the beginning point for the LUS pilots.
If we didn't have 3 lists, the west would not have reps at the table.
 
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nycbusdriver said:
 
Yes.  I see what you  mean and I agree.  
 
But those snakes would have never offered anything worthwhile.  That's a testament to their supreme lack of foresight in even offering the Kirby proposal.  
 
In the end, one can honestly say that Nicolau f****d everybody in the end.
 
Your OPINION.  That is fine.  We all have opinions.
 
The FACT is that ALL PARTIES agreed to the process and the product of the process.  Period.
 
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nevergiveup said:
If we didn't have 3 lists, the west would not have reps at the table.
 
WRONG.  3 Parties, 2 Lists. 
 
You will note that the EPSIC is the ONLY party espousing the OPINION that there are 3 lists.  The company states that the Nicolau list is the ONLY list that they have ever ACCEPTED and RECOGNIZED.  The APASIC is has RECOGNIZED the Nicolau List as the beginning point for the LUS pilots, and the WPSIC has opined also that the Nicolau Seniority List is the beginning point for the LUS pilots. 
 
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Freighterguynow said:
A decade later and your recognized list is still just as worthless as the day it was issued. You need a seat at the table because you NEED a seat at the table.
 
Read post 12408.  You might get it then.
 
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[SIZE=12pt]“…The Arbitration Board conducts an evidentiary hearing, with witnesses, evidence and a stenographic transcript. The Board’s Opinion and Award are to be issued simultaneously, within 150 days following the PID, unless both pilot groups and ALPA’s President agree to an extension. The Merger Policy provides, “The Award of the Arbitration Board shall be final and binding on all parties to the arbitration and shall be defended by ALPA.” No ALPA seniority integration arbitration result has ever been set aside by the courts although some dissatisfied pilots have challenged the award before administrative agencies and the courts.”[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]US Airwaves June/July 2000[/SIZE]
[SIZE=12pt]US Air Merger Committee Members: Todd Cardoza (PIT), Mike Cleary (BOS),Randy Mowery (PIT)[/SIZE]

 
 
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The courts enforced the agreement we made, to the letter.

Nobody is bound to use the Nic for anything, ever. It was all based on contingencies.. and the court never adopted any of your assumptions.
 
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Phoenix said:
The courts enforced the agreement we made, to the letter.

Nobody is bound to use the Nic for anything, ever. It was all based on contingencies.. and the court never adopted any of your assumptions.
 
One fact...no assumption necessary.
 
The courts found the scab union guilty of violating it's DFR.  
 
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nevergiveup said:
If we didn't have 3 lists, the west would not have reps at the table.
 
Wrong conclusion.
 
The West has a seat at the table, not because we have 3 lists, not because of Nicolau, and not because there are 3 pilot groups.
 
The West has a seat at the table because the former bargaining agent was guilty of a DFR violation for not representing its West class members.
 
The only possible way to get a fair and equitable outcome as required by McCaskill/Bond is to have all parties represented.
 
So, we have 2 companies merging, two pilot groups merging, and the only accepted system seniority list covering all LCC pilots is the Nicolau award.
 
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ARBITRATION PROCEEDINGS BEFORE THE MCCASKILL-BOND
BOARD OF ARBITRATION.
Synopsis of the current opinions of the three separate American Airlines SLI  committee proposals IMHO;
 
East Pilots;
 
Fair and equitable length of service, career expectations and assets brought to the merger.
 
Legacy American Airlines pilots;
 
We are superior, staple non legacy AMR pilots to the bottom of our list.  This concept has served us well since the 60's, why Senators MCCASKILL and BOND copped us an attitude after the TWA merger is a mystery to our superior pilot group.
 
america west pilots;
 
Alpa united pilots tried to position the East pilots to the bottom, planning for the 5th merger try in ten years with US Airways, during the america west merger.
america west pilots in new hire class saved the East pilots. west pilots are accusing AMR pilots of stealing East pilots attrition, claiming it is the west pilots spoils of war booty. 
 
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nic4us said:
 
Wrong conclusion.
 
The West has a seat at the table, not because we have 3 lists, not because of Nicolau, and not because there are 3 pilot groups.
 
The West has a seat at the table because the former bargaining agent was guilty of a DFR violation for not representing its West class members.
 
The only possible way to get a fair and equitable outcome as required by McCaskill/Bond is to have all parties represented.
 
So, we have 2 companies merging, two pilot groups merging, and the only accepted system seniority list covering all LCC pilots is the Nicolau award.
 
 
The courts did not establish three committees.  And in case you missed it, they didn't prevent three committees (like Marty's disciples begged and hoped they would).  
 
The three pilot groups have a committee because of the provisions of the Protocol Agreement and the "fair and equitable" decision of the Arbs. Nothing more.  Nothing less.  
 
"Fair and equitable" in the eyes of three arbs is the only thing left.  If you are waiting for the BOA to take on the mantle of Buyme and Grabber, and venture to do what they themselves refused to do, then you might be setting yourself up for disappointment.  
 
Buy another tie.  It might make you feel more proactive.  
 
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nic4us said:
 
One fact...no assumption necessary.
 
The courts found the scab union guilty of violating it's DFR.  
Every airline pilot knows who the real scabs are. 
 
Please provide the court orders and injunctive relief provided the west pilots during the last ten years.  Dicta is like voiding, everyone has it and it ........
 
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Q. During your time as a commercial airline
8 pilot, have you also done work for the unions, union
9 or unions that represented pilots at the various
10 airlines?
11 A. Yes. I started out as a Retirement
12 Insurance Committee Chairman at Mesa Airlines in the
13 early 1990s.
14 Later, I worked on the Merger Committee
15 and did a merger mediation with Robert Harris
16 between West Air and Mesa Airlines. I was later
17 tapped to be a Joint Negotiating Committee Chairman
18 and achieved the first Collective Bargaining
19 Agreement at Mesa Airlines in the early '90s.
20 And then went back to the Merger Committee
21 and worked on that capacity for a while.
Q = Freund
A =  JOHN MCILVENNA
 
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Claxon said:
The west pilots should disregard "dicta" and concentrate on court injunctions and orders, it would save them a lot of time and money.
Hey it's all they got, and it isn't much, the smart ones know.
 
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Q. And also as I understood the Kirby
3 proposal itself, in terms of the specific proposed
4 pay rates, did not reflect that range that you
5 believed was necessary to achieve ratification at
6 that time?
 
7 A. At that time, no.
 
8 Q. All right. And you're not presenting it
9 for that purpose?
 
10 A. No, I -- no.
Q = Wilder
A = Johnny Mac
 
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