5 Year Pilots

[jbu320]

"We have entire classes starting their 6th year here. Some have been let go, but they were fired for cause, which is of course part of the agreement."

Just to back that statement, yes some people have been let go, although none of them would have had 5 years here, and while I cannot go into specifics, it was with very good cause. I believe the number is less than a handful, but again,under circumstances that would have made all carriers see the need to let them go.

The five year contract, while true, is a non event!

[post="241220"][/post]​

Not so regarding the no terminations of five year persons or the very good cause of such. The ridiculous nature of the cause will indeed accelerate the arrival of a representative on the property and instill a fear for the job security attitude. While the company grows, the original ideas are being dilluted by inept middle mgrs. and the unseen turmoil from the upper mgrs. Sad but true. Amazing how this came about with the arrival of our new VP of ops. from an ATL based carrier.

 

[Blue Dude]

.........................

 

[imlars]

"My company is better than yours".

"No its not"

"yes it is"

"no its not"

Yes it is"

"no its not"

yes it is"

"no its not"

"yes it is"

Lars

 

[CaptianBoomer]

jbu 320

I disagree about the "representative" at JBLU. I for one, will never, EVER vote for union representation. That is, unless it is our own in house deal.

As far as the terminations, the ones I have heard about all DESERVED it big time. There have been NO (as in ZERO) terminations at the 5 year point.

IMHO, there are others here who have screwed the pooch in ways that would have gotten them thrown in the corn patch for a month, 90 days, or more at any other carrier. JBLU goes way beyond being understanding the ins and outs and IMO has bent over for several who quite possibly deserved to lose their job.

Of course, we are talking about the same 5% that every carrier has.

Boomer

ps. glad that my next screwup will be scrutinized by those that know I am just trying to get the job done.

 

[jbu320]

jbu 320

I disagree about the "representative" at JBLU. I for one, will never, EVER vote for union representation. That is, unless it is our own in house deal.

As far as the terminations, the ones I have heard about all DESERVED it big time. There have been NO (as in ZERO) terminations at the 5 year point.

IMHO, there are others here who have screwed the pooch in ways that would have gotten them thrown in the corn patch for a month, 90 days, or more at any other carrier. JBLU goes way beyond being understanding the ins and outs and IMO has bent over for several who quite possibly deserved to lose their job.

Of course, we are talking about the same 5% that every carrier has.

Boomer

ps. glad that my next screwup will be scrutinized by those that know I am just trying to get the job done.

[post="247536"][/post]​

 

[jbu320]

[post="247557"][/post]​

Hey Boomer,

Don't boom so loud about what you don't know. The day is young and you don't know all the details obviously. The post I submitted did not contain the word union but representative. That would be a preference toward 'inhouse.' I wouldn't say never to anything unless you have stood in the shoes of those who 'deserved' to be terminated. You are only operating on what you heard and that is not a fair assesment to others. With over 20 years of union time I have no love of them either and would prefer the way things have been initially here on the property. The thing you need to look at is the fantastic neighborly attitude of support the co. has offered is diminished with rapid growth. Even the best apple is subject to a worm and those in the top don't always know what is going on at all levels. Our feelings are not that much different but you're making a judgement based on things you do not know.

 

[Busdrvr]

Hey Boomer,

Don't boom so loud about what you don't know.  The day is young and you don't know all the details obviously.  The post I submitted did not contain the word union but representative.  That would be a preference toward 'inhouse.'  I wouldn't say never to anything unless you have stood in the shoes of those who 'deserved' to be terminated.  You are only operating on what you heard and that is not a fair assesment to others.  With over 20 years of union time I have no love of them either and would prefer the way things have been initially here on the property.  The thing you need to look at is the fantastic neighborly attitude of support the co. has offered is diminished with rapid growth. Even the best apple is subject to a worm and those in the top don't always know what is going on at all levels.  Our feelings are not that much different but you're making a judgement based on things you do not know. 

[post="247562"][/post]​

You apparently HAVE been around!! .

The only thing worse than being in a Union when you don't need to be is NOT being in one when you do need to be.

The advantage of an "in house" organization? you keep all the money for your group. No national politics.
advantage of a big national union? years of experience. "experts" on the dole who just may bail out your arse.
In some cases, small organizations have been able to 'contract' out for the services of the large union, while maintaining autonomy.

I've seen too many guys pounding their chest after safety meetings call some other pilot an "idiot who should be FEBed" for some mistake, only to bend the living he11 out of a jet themselves the next week. Everybody makes mistakes, and I for one would never be comfortable putting the future of my family and career in the hands of someone else, especially when that individual may have differant priorities/allegances than myself.

Good luck.

 

[CaptianBoomer]

jbu 320 and Busdrvr:

You both are acting like JBLU management runs around and finds reasons to fire people. That couldn't be further from the truth. I don't have the exact number of terminations, but heard it was under 5. Others here have put it at that number with a few more let go during training.

Of course, the stories running around about who was terminated for what get better with age and I am sure there was some embellishment on the part of the party who told our group the stories. The stories don't warrant a retelling, but suffice it to say that the terminations I heard about were not for pure "lack of flying prowess." You are correct that I wasn't there, and have only heard the stories. However, if the stories I have heard are anywhere near true, the company was justified in terminating their employment.

Enough said.......the point is that this is one fine place to work. I would walk in and tell my chief pilot here a lot more than I would tell one at my previous employer.

Complain all you want about how it isn't the way it was. I think all companies have these issues. It is better to have growing pains than shrinking pains.

Busdrvr: The expertise you claim is so "prevalent" at the national union level comes directly from the line pilot ranks. I'll stick with the talent already in place at JBLU to do the right thing. I have almost 18 years in the "union" and could care less about what they think, do, or want. I have seen how they have been such a good "steward" to the careers of many, including myself....so I'll take my chances being on my own.

Lets not forget that topic. To reiterate, there have been NO terminations at the 5 year level. The contracts never terminate.


Boomer

 

[Busdrvr]

jbu 320 and Busdrvr:

You both are acting like JBLU management runs around and finds reasons to fire people.  That couldn't be further from the truth.  I don't have the exact number of terminations, but heard it was under 5. 
Of course, the stories running around about who was terminated for what get better with age and I am sure there was some embellishment on the part of the party who told our group the stories.  The stories don't warrant a retelling, but suffice it to say that the terminations I heard about were not for pure "lack of flying prowess."  You are correct that I wasn't there, and have only heard the stories.  However, if the stories I have heard are anywhere near true, the company was justified in terminating their employment.

Enough said.......the point is that this is one fine place to work. I would walk in and tell my chief pilot here a lot more than I would tell one at my previous employer.

Complain all you want about how it isn't the way it was.  I think all companies have these issues.  It is better to have growing pains than shrinking pains.

Busdrvr:  The expertise you claim is so "prevalent" at the national union level comes directly from the line pilot ranks.  I'll stick with the talent already in place at JBLU to do the right thing.  I have almost 18 years in the "union" and could care less about what they think, do, or want.  I have seen how they have been such a good "steward" to the careers of many, including myself....so I'll take my chances being on my own.

Lets not forget that topic.  To reiterate, there have been NO terminations at the 5 year level.  The contracts never terminate. 
Boomer

[post="247584"][/post]​

First you dismiss jblu320's remarks as inaccurate hearsay, then immediately tell us what "you heard"

The "expertise" I refer to is NOT from the pilot ranks. When we as pilots feel we are smart enough to do everything we usually find ourselves in deep trouble. The EXPERTISE is in the AME's who are experts at getting you your Class 1 back. The experts are the ones who can defend you when you are accused of doing something incorrectly that results in a little bent metal or get busted on a line check, because we all know the FAA is just "here to help", and the company would always stand behind you, an individual pilot is a potentially costly Aircraft flaw was to blame instead of "pilot error". the experts are the labor lawyers who will be there when your turn out to be one of the 5, and you actually know the truth first hand, not what the company wants you to know, and you need an ADVOCATE. I guess you'd rather 'go it alone' though .

But one more time. If there has never been or never will be terminations at the 5 year point, then why have that rule? Surely all it would take is you guys asking Dave, and he'd end it right?

I honestly don't know the answer, but something in the SEC filings got me thinking. Since a "contract is a contract" and each of you has your OWN contract, what would happen if say a year after the EMB came online, the FAA parked them for a period of time for some AD, and Blu found themselves with a bunch of pilots without jets to fly. would the compnay be allowed to furlough those junior guys (who have their own personal contract) or would they instead just not renew guys that hit the 5 year point?

 

[v1rotate]

The "expertise" I refer to is NOT from the pilot ranks.  When we as pilots feel we are smart enough to do everything we usually find ourselves in deep trouble.  The EXPERTISE is in the AME's who are experts at getting you your Class 1 back.  The experts are the ones who can defend you when you are accused of doing something incorrectly...

I honestly don't know the answer, but something in the SEC filings got me thinking.  Since a "contract is a contract" and each of you has your OWN contract, what would happen if say a year after the EMB came online, the FAA parked them for a period of time for some AD, and Blu found themselves with a bunch of pilots without jets to fly.  would the compnay be allowed to furlough those junior guys (who have their own personal contract) or would they instead just not renew guys that hit the 5 year point?

[post="247612"][/post]​

Bus, I have a couple of pionts to make.

Legal: The agreement states, "Indemnification. The Airline will indemnify the Pilot (including providing legal representation where appropriate) for acts out of the performance of the duties described herein,..."

Medical: The agreement states, "Loss of License. The Airline will provide the Pilot a Loss of License Plan which will provide to the Pilot disability pay in the event the Pilot loses his or her license as defined in the Plan..." Insurance is provided by Harvey Watt and includes services designed to help retain and recertify a medical should the need arise.

No Furlough: The agreement states, "Job Security. The Airline does not anticipate any downturn in business that would require any reduction of hours of any pilots. However, acknowledging that such downturns do occur occasionally, The Airline hereby guarantees that the Pilot will continue to receive pay for a minimum guarantee of 70-hours per Bid Period, for the duration of this Agreement. In any such downturn, this 70-hour guarantee would apply to both lineholders and Reserve Pilots." Bus, if you had this type of clause in your UAL contract, you would still be making your guarantee every month for the duration of your contract even though you are out on furlough.

This means that in your hypothetical grounding scenario, ALL pilots affected would be GUARANTEED 70-hours of pay per bid for the duration of the grounding, or until the end of the agreement, which in some cases is in 2009 or more depending on seniority. I would say that's a pretty good deal.

With that being said, please remember that All JetBlue pilots have recently signed an updated agreement, including those pilots that have over 5 years service.

Please...once and for all, let's give this 5 year thing a rest.

V1

 

[Dizel8]

"The ridiculous nature of the cause"

Are we talking about the same people?

As I said, I cannot go into details, but as mentioned, those very few, that were let go after training, would have been persona non grata at every airline.It is doubtful they ever will be able to gain employment with another air carrier. That is, unless the truth is distorted.

As for the VP from Atlanta, he is perhaps upsetting the apple cart a bit. Whether this is needed, well only time will tell, the jury is still out, but at the moment, he is not viewed as it may have been wished.

 

[Busdrvr]

Legal: The agreement states, "Indemnification. The Airline will indemnify the Pilot (including providing legal representation where appropriate) for acts out of the performance of the duties described herein,..."

OK...So the company says you won't get into any legal trouble for performing your "duties"... The problem arrises when the company says you were doing something BEYOND the scope of your "duty". about all that clause protects you from is getting sued by a pax for injuries sustained in turbulence. If however the company feels you were neglegent, who is on YOUR side. Who will pay YOUR legal bills if they decide to go after you?

Medical: The agreement states, "Loss of License. The Airline will provide the Pilot a Loss of License Plan which will provide to the Pilot disability pay in the event the Pilot loses his or her license as defined in the Plan..." Insurance is provided by Harvey Watt and includes services designed to help retain and recertify a medical should the need arise.

Harvey Watt is in business for Harvey Watt. If the insurance compnay feels it's more cost effective to quit the fight, then the fight is over.

No Furlough: The agreement states, "Job Security. The Airline does not anticipate any downturn in business that would require any reduction of hours of any pilots. However, acknowledging that such downturns do occur occasionally, The Airline hereby guarantees that the Pilot will continue to receive pay for a minimum guarantee of 70-hours per Bid Period, for the duration of this Agreement. In any such downturn, this 70-hour guarantee would apply to both lineholders and Reserve Pilots." Bus, if you had this type of clause in your UAL contract, you would still be making your guarantee every month for the duration of your contract even though you are out on furlough.

A "no furlough clause"? Gooly beeve, why didn't we think of that!! Us silly legacy guys. All these years in business and nobody ever thought of it... Uh, most us us DID have a no fulough clause, AND minimum pilot manning requirements. And it even pid guys who were displaced from the 737-200 and 727 when they were parked post 9/11, at 75 hours each, and at significantly higher rates. But let me tell you a little secret. If company survival is in question (and it would be if you parked an entire fleet), somebody has got to go. There is no amount of "contract" that will prevent it. But you quoted the aspect of your "contract" that would make me worry.

The Airline hereby guarantees that the Pilot will continue to receive pay for a minimum guarantee of 70-hours per Bid Period, for the duration of this Agreement.

This means that in your hypothetical grounding scenario, ALL pilots affected would be GUARANTEED 70-hours of pay per bid for the duration of the grounding, or until the end of the agreement, which in some cases is in 2009 or more depending on seniority. I would say that's a pretty good deal.

What this means is that if you have 4 years and 10 months of service when the company finds itself in need of "cutting some fat", you'd better have your resume dusted off. I would say it's a pretty crappy deal. But in case you weren't listenting, and don't have the experience in the industry to have an understanding of what is contained in most contracts, the pilots at DAL and UAL had a MUCH more "ironclad" no furlough deal

 

[bluetoad]

What this means is that if you have 4 years and 10 months of service when the company finds itself in need of "cutting some fat", you'd better have your resume dusted off. I would say it's a pretty crappy deal. But in case you weren't listenting, and don't have the experience in the industry to have an understanding of what is contained in most contracts, the pilots at DAL and UAL had a MUCH more "ironclad" no furlough deal

[post="247774"][/post]​

So how many pilots are furloughed from Delta? United? JetBlue?

 

[mweiss]

So how many pilots are furloughed from Delta? United? JetBlue?

[post="247792"][/post]​

You know as well as the rest of us do that the contract terms aren't the reason for that. Busdrvr's point is that UA's pilots would be worse under the B6 contract than they were under the UA contract. When (not if) B6 is in more dire financial straits, you'll see different behavior. The company's survival will depend upon it.

 

[v1rotate]

Harvey Watt is in business for Harvey Watt. If the insurance compnay feels it's more cost effective to quit the fight, then the fight is over.

If you one second think that ALPA is not in business for ALPA, then I've got a bridge to sell ya. ALPA is a business my friend, plain and simple. As a former ALPA member myself, I can tell you the "fight" was over before it even started, and it was the pilot group that got the shaft. Please don't ever tell me about ALPA's willingness to fight.

Uh, most us us DID have a no fulough clause

Bus, you put the word "DID" in captital letters. I think that says it all.

But you quoted the aspect of your "contract" that would make me worry.

Since you don't work for JetBlue, why worry about it?

The Airline hereby guarantees that the Pilot will continue to receive pay for a minimum guarantee of 70-hours per Bid Period, for the duration of this Agreement.

What this means is that if you have 4 years and 10 months of service when the company finds itself in need of "cutting some fat", you'd better have your resume dusted off. I would say it's a pretty crappy deal.

Don't forget that the most senior pilots already have contracts that extend to 2009. Do you really think that any company, yet alone JetBlue, would furlough, or as you say "cut some fat", from the middle of the seniority list? Come on now.

But in case you weren't listenting, and don't have the experience in the industry to have an understanding of what is contained in most contracts, the pilots at DAL and UAL had a MUCH more "ironclad" no furlough deal

Again, please don't ever tell me what a good deal an ALPA contract is. Been there, done that, dont' ever want to go there again! Yep...I've got the t-shirt too!! Oh yeh...and a pile of magazines...

V1

[post="247774"][/post]​