5 Year Pilots

[eolesen]

Actually Bob, my understanding is (and Blu guys please pipe up if I'm wrong), you can be fired for cause at ANY time. You can be let go for ANY reason at the end of the contract. there need be no "cause"

[post="249222"][/post]​

Bob and Busdrvr are probably correct in their interpretations here -- just because the contract can be automatically renewed doesn't mean that it will be. All the company needs to do is to serve notice that it will not be renewed at the end of the term.

That said, it's highly unlikely that they'd ever -not- renew a contract. Doing something along those lines would essentially be putting out the welcome mat for ALPA or an independent union to come in and set up shop.

 

[Dizel8]

"I made the point then that we would ALL make about the same one day, and that YOU would determine that wage".

Well, apparently then, the UAL pilots considers themselves inferior at this junction, since they have agreed to a payscale which is less than most.

 

[Busdrvr]

"I made the point then that we would ALL make about the same one day, and that YOU would determine that wage".

Well, apparently then, the UAL pilots considers themselves inferior at this junction, since they have agreed to a payscale which is less than most.

[post="249310"][/post]​

Not less than yours. It is also important to clarify what constitutes "pay". A 12 pay rate at an airline that has been in business 5 is of no use. What matters is the bottom line cost per hour. that cost includes B-funds, C-funds, the cost of offering reasonable movement between airframes, ect. The jet doesn't care what your seniority level is. by that measure UAL still pays significantly more to do the same job. In any case, when UAL was making money, they stood up for more pay. One would expect those who work for profitable companies to be the ones pulling up industry pay, not pulling it down. But again, do the math. What is the total value per flight hour of the compensation package you agreed to vs the one the pilots at UAL agreed to. And you can even include the massive increase in value your stock options saw this past year....

 

[jbu320]

Not less than yours. It is also important to clarify what constitutes "pay". A 12 pay rate at an airline that has been in business 5 is of no use. What matters is the bottom line cost per hour. that cost includes B-funds, C-funds, the cost of offering reasonable movement between airframes, ect. The jet doesn't care what your seniority level is. by that measure UAL still pays significantly more to do the same job. In any case, when UAL was making money, they stood up for more pay. One would expect those who work for profitable companies to be the ones pulling up industry pay, not pulling it down. But again, do the math. What is the total value per flight hour of the compensation package you agreed to vs the one the pilots at UAL agreed to. And you can even include the massive increase in value your stock options saw this past year....

[post="249345"][/post]​

Very good information exchange. Now let's look at it a little more in depth. All these beautiful benefits are a result of unionization. No one argues that point. I wish to digress a bit off course here about the beauties of unioization since the majority support it. One question. Does anyone remember the 1986 event where one ALPA carrier chose to sever the artery of another? UAL versus FL in Denver. One 50 year old carrier biting the heart out of another 40 year carrier for the benefit of self. Is this the price we are willing to pay for that beautiful paycheck? All of us who wore the gold wings of ALPA in those days, paid our strike assessments to our 'brothers' and walked the picket lines for support. It seems like the bottom line is possibly a little greedy. I think it has degraded to a job and no longer a profession. Just an aside but the thought being pushed here is that pilots of a unionized 'major' carrier are better than those of a smaller upstart is about the most preposterous case of backpatting BS I've seen. Those who attack do not posess the knowledge to make such claims and I suggest silence and listening so you may learn a bit. Only one man's opinion...

 

[Busdrvr]

320, Ah the Frontier debacle!! I'll be honest, I wasn't there, don't know the whole story. Flying the line, I've heard two VERY differant sets of "facts". I flew a good bit with a pan am guy (not one of the annointed 747 flyers who came to UAL or 727ers who just happened to bid down without any prior knowledge just in time to go to DAL.... ). He was pretty outspoken on the eating each others young thing. then I hear from the other side that the pilots wanted to consumate the deal, but than management was out to fracture the union shortly after a very contensious strike. Supposedly, management thought they could buy Frnt and operate them seperately with a differant (much lower paying contract). the pilots said "all UAL pilots will make UAL contract wages". This was the thing that made management walk away. UAL could have "grown" the FRNT domestic NB division while shrinking the UAL side, and then had an internal whipsaw.

But one thing for sure, had we as pilots demanded industry wide pay standards, it wouldn't have been an issue. Anybody who straps on a 737 makes X dollars per flight hour PERIOD. No first year "probationary" pay, no exceptions. that IMO has been ALPA's biggest flaw. Too many unionist, not enough economist. They still think pre-deregulation pay strategies will work. they are wrong.

 

[jbu320]

320, Ah the Frontier debacle!! I'll be honest, I wasn't there, don't know the whole story. Flying the line, I've heard two VERY differant sets of "facts". I flew a good bit with a pan am guy (not one of the annointed 747 flyers who came to UAL or 727ers who just happened to bid down without any prior knowledge just in time to go to DAL.... ). He was pretty outspoken on the eating each others young thing. then I hear from the other side that the pilots wanted to consumate the deal, but than management was out to fracture the union shortly after a very contensious strike. Supposedly, management thought they could buy Frnt and operate them seperately with a differant (much lower paying contract). the pilots said "all UAL pilots will make UAL contract wages". This was the thing that made management walk away. UAL could have "grown" the FRNT domestic NB division while shrinking the UAL side, and then had an internal whipsaw.

But one thing for sure, had we as pilots demanded industry wide pay standards, it wouldn't have been an issue. Anybody who straps on a 737 makes X dollars per flight hour PERIOD. No first year "probationary" pay, no exceptions. that IMO has been ALPA's biggest flaw. Too many unionist, not enough economist. They still think pre-deregulation pay strategies will work. they are wrong.

[post="249448"][/post]​

Right you are. The UAL management used their ace in the hole to do two things. They beat the pilot group over the head after the strike and then they placed FL on a death spiral that removed the airline with the second highest number of Departures at Stapleton. The pilot group was led by a very intelligent MEC who publicly stated that it was comparing 'brain surgeons' with 'farmers.' Funny that FL never bent an aircraft or killed a pax in those 40 years of serving (at one time 139 destinations in the US, Mexico and Canada.) I do not believe the same could be said about the MEC's medical group. The pay scale was not significantly different between the two carriers at that time and it was basically trip rig and other minor issues that differed. Interestingly enough, one of UAL's VP's (Joseph O'Gorman) came to the President's position at FL after the Al Feldman then Glen Ryland team had departed. He stayed long enough to posture the company into a certain fail scenario and then returned to UAL to enjoy the spoils. Another interesting wrinkle in the history of our air carriers and their management/union relations. I might ad that FL never had a work stoppage or came close to one in their years of operation. A truly superb company.

 

[Busdrvr]

"one of UAL's VP's (Joseph O'Gorman) came to the President's position at FL after the Al Feldman then Glen Ryland team had departed. He stayed long enough to posture the company into a certain fail scenario and then returned to UAL to enjoy the spoils."

Are you sure it wasn't unintentional and UAL just liked that kind of fail at all cost manager...

I personally hold a strong affinity for the REAL Frontier. It was on Frontier as a young lad in 1971-72 that I took my first ride on an airline (DFW-DEN). If I remember correctly, ALL the seats were first class. the meal was "Steak and Tails" (yes, lobster on a 2 hour domestic flight). It was then that I first said 'I want to be an Airline Pilot". To be young and stupid......

 

[B6Busdriver]

[To be young and stupid......

[post="249512"][/post]​

Well you're not young anymore but...................................

 

[mweiss]

But one thing for sure, had we as pilots demanded industry wide pay standards, it wouldn't have been an issue.

[post="249448"][/post]​

The counter to such a strategy is a nonunion airline. It's really, really hard to truly monopolize labor in a market, particularly one as big as the US airline industry.

 

[Busdrvr]

Well you're not young anymore but...................................

[post="249590"][/post]​

 

[Bob Owens]

The counter to such a strategy is a nonunion airline. It's really, really hard to truly monopolize labor in a market, particularly one as big as the US airline industry.

[post="249611"][/post]​

Arent pilots the most highly unionized group in the industry?

Even Deltas pilots have a union.

If JetBlue sticks around long enough their pilots will go union one way or another.