5TH week vacation coming back?
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Kev3188
Veteran
Which is exactly the way it should be. Despite all the catchy phrases DL likes to throw around (Delta family, unique culture, values oriented company, etc) the fact is your relationship is purely economic with a major corporation. Of course you also insist that union employees under a CBA can and do get terminated for just cause but the fact is the requirements to terminate someone are so specific, complex, and lengthy that such terminations are few and far between.
Josh
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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Kev,
Even if I stopped at the first sentence in saying that 700’s pronouncement that DL employees COULD be laid off instead of the definitive “are” that 700 used, then the claims the labor movement CAN make are significantly weakened. It is precisely because I DID keep going that the POSSIBILITY that is included in the word “COULD” is shown to not even be sufficient to provide the hope that the labor movement wants at DL.
You have repeatedly acknowledged that DL pays a premium to its employees to buy labor peace. You have also said that DL’s non-union employees benefit because of the contracts of unionized airline employees, even though I have noted that DL employees SURPASS the salaries of their unionized peers.
But, as you well know, pay is only part of the equation and DL has repeatedly shown that they provide an equal if not better strategy for the issue of job security and scope than DL employees’ peers at unionized carriers have.
Even though you decry the ready reserve and flexible part-time programs, it is precisely those programs that has allowed DL to better protect its full-time employees in the event of downturns in the industry – which are certain to come as we can predict that the sun will set tonight.
The basis of the Spirit of Delta airplane campaign – led by FAs – was because DL protected FT jobs during the PATCO strike and subsequent downsizing of the ATC system when other carriers laid off thousands of employees and the scene has been repeated over and over during the past 30 years.
Some people in the labor movement want DL people to keep remembering 7.5 but somehow want them to forget The Spirit of Delta, and much more recently, that DL’s most direct competitors – AA and UA – are eliminating thousands of ramp employee jobs and outsourcing below wing work in scores of cities- and neither of them are offering their employees the option to transfer to passenger service positions in the same city that DL offered its ramp employees during 7.5. A large portion of the reduction in AA’s workforce is because they have shifted former AA. TWU-represented ramp employees to American Eagle. More significantly, AA and UA both continue to grow their RJ operations as DL shrinks them; traffic reports are incredibly public documents to show exactly where labor is winning and where it is not.
It is noteworthy that there is a thread on this very forum chiding a particular labor leader for his lack of scope protection for UA employees which United Airlines has used to their great benefit in eliminating thousands of jobs while on this forum labor supporters are trying to convince DL employees that labor can offer DL employees a better deal. Given the track record of the labor movement, it is no surprise that DL employees have consistently said “no thanks” to the promises of the labor movement.
UA has a far larger Express operation at ORD, its hometown, than they have mainline flights... what a stick in the eye that Express operation - which continues to grow - is to labor. It is doubtful that UA employees - including pilots, FAs, and mechanics - will never regain those jobs.
In the meantime, DL is replacing small RJ flying with 717s.
Here's a factoid for you and the board for the day:
Only 58% of UA passengers board UA mainline aircraft at ORD compared to 87% for DL at ATL and 82% for AA at DFW and even 62% for AA at ORD.
In fact, you are a credible member of this board because you don’t make over-the-top theoretical claims that have no basis in reality. It is also true that NW and the IAM came to agreements that were at least as successful, if not more so, in keeping cities open that other carriers closed, including DL in 7.5. But the IAM didn’t provide same city station transfers that DL provided because the IAM took an all or none approach (above and below wing) to whether a city was mainline handled or outsourced. And there can be denying that AMFA’s strategic miscalculations gave NW the opportunity to achieve the vast majority of its needed labor cost cuts with the termination of thousands of the highest paid employees at the company, reducing the need for NW to seek deeper cuts elsewhere.
It bears noting, once again, that DL and NW had identical labor cost CASMs when they merged which shows that both ended up with the same result but using very different methods. DL had and still has higher percentages of flexible workers (RR and PT) while as of the date of the merger, DL’s FT employees had higher salaries and benefits – and data from the DOT validates that.
Anyone who looks at the airline industry over the past ten years can see that labor unions have had minimal success at protecting jobs as airlines have used their legal ability to shred and alter CBAs at will. UA’s most recent reduction of jobs didn’t even happen in BK. The auto industry eliminated tens of thousands of jobs, some in BK and some not. Public sector workers are seeing some of the same things happen to them that happened to airline employees.
The power of labor unions to protect pay, benefits, and jobs is simply not what the labor movement wants employees to believe.
As long as DL employees can see reality – and not just theory and rhetoric – the chances are slim to none that DL employees will choose to give up a strategy that has worked for them, including for tens of thousands of former union employees that joined DL from other airlines, to jump into unions that continue to be decimated by the very companies that the unions are trying to protect employees from.
Josh,
Kev often mentions that QOL issues are a key factor for some DL employees but those are economic as well. Spending an extra half hour on the job does have a price... but every one of those factors, QOL or not, can be competitively compared. IF DL was truly uncompetitive on any one of those factors, the market (DL employees) would speak and have the ability to win - but that isn't happening.
Even if I stopped at the first sentence in saying that 700’s pronouncement that DL employees COULD be laid off instead of the definitive “are” that 700 used, then the claims the labor movement CAN make are significantly weakened. It is precisely because I DID keep going that the POSSIBILITY that is included in the word “COULD” is shown to not even be sufficient to provide the hope that the labor movement wants at DL.
You have repeatedly acknowledged that DL pays a premium to its employees to buy labor peace. You have also said that DL’s non-union employees benefit because of the contracts of unionized airline employees, even though I have noted that DL employees SURPASS the salaries of their unionized peers.
But, as you well know, pay is only part of the equation and DL has repeatedly shown that they provide an equal if not better strategy for the issue of job security and scope than DL employees’ peers at unionized carriers have.
Even though you decry the ready reserve and flexible part-time programs, it is precisely those programs that has allowed DL to better protect its full-time employees in the event of downturns in the industry – which are certain to come as we can predict that the sun will set tonight.
The basis of the Spirit of Delta airplane campaign – led by FAs – was because DL protected FT jobs during the PATCO strike and subsequent downsizing of the ATC system when other carriers laid off thousands of employees and the scene has been repeated over and over during the past 30 years.
Some people in the labor movement want DL people to keep remembering 7.5 but somehow want them to forget The Spirit of Delta, and much more recently, that DL’s most direct competitors – AA and UA – are eliminating thousands of ramp employee jobs and outsourcing below wing work in scores of cities- and neither of them are offering their employees the option to transfer to passenger service positions in the same city that DL offered its ramp employees during 7.5. A large portion of the reduction in AA’s workforce is because they have shifted former AA. TWU-represented ramp employees to American Eagle. More significantly, AA and UA both continue to grow their RJ operations as DL shrinks them; traffic reports are incredibly public documents to show exactly where labor is winning and where it is not.
It is noteworthy that there is a thread on this very forum chiding a particular labor leader for his lack of scope protection for UA employees which United Airlines has used to their great benefit in eliminating thousands of jobs while on this forum labor supporters are trying to convince DL employees that labor can offer DL employees a better deal. Given the track record of the labor movement, it is no surprise that DL employees have consistently said “no thanks” to the promises of the labor movement.
UA has a far larger Express operation at ORD, its hometown, than they have mainline flights... what a stick in the eye that Express operation - which continues to grow - is to labor. It is doubtful that UA employees - including pilots, FAs, and mechanics - will never regain those jobs.
In the meantime, DL is replacing small RJ flying with 717s.
Here's a factoid for you and the board for the day:
Only 58% of UA passengers board UA mainline aircraft at ORD compared to 87% for DL at ATL and 82% for AA at DFW and even 62% for AA at ORD.
In fact, you are a credible member of this board because you don’t make over-the-top theoretical claims that have no basis in reality. It is also true that NW and the IAM came to agreements that were at least as successful, if not more so, in keeping cities open that other carriers closed, including DL in 7.5. But the IAM didn’t provide same city station transfers that DL provided because the IAM took an all or none approach (above and below wing) to whether a city was mainline handled or outsourced. And there can be denying that AMFA’s strategic miscalculations gave NW the opportunity to achieve the vast majority of its needed labor cost cuts with the termination of thousands of the highest paid employees at the company, reducing the need for NW to seek deeper cuts elsewhere.
It bears noting, once again, that DL and NW had identical labor cost CASMs when they merged which shows that both ended up with the same result but using very different methods. DL had and still has higher percentages of flexible workers (RR and PT) while as of the date of the merger, DL’s FT employees had higher salaries and benefits – and data from the DOT validates that.
Anyone who looks at the airline industry over the past ten years can see that labor unions have had minimal success at protecting jobs as airlines have used their legal ability to shred and alter CBAs at will. UA’s most recent reduction of jobs didn’t even happen in BK. The auto industry eliminated tens of thousands of jobs, some in BK and some not. Public sector workers are seeing some of the same things happen to them that happened to airline employees.
The power of labor unions to protect pay, benefits, and jobs is simply not what the labor movement wants employees to believe.
As long as DL employees can see reality – and not just theory and rhetoric – the chances are slim to none that DL employees will choose to give up a strategy that has worked for them, including for tens of thousands of former union employees that joined DL from other airlines, to jump into unions that continue to be decimated by the very companies that the unions are trying to protect employees from.
Josh,
Kev often mentions that QOL issues are a key factor for some DL employees but those are economic as well. Spending an extra half hour on the job does have a price... but every one of those factors, QOL or not, can be competitively compared. IF DL was truly uncompetitive on any one of those factors, the market (DL employees) would speak and have the ability to win - but that isn't happening.
Kev3188
Veteran
Exactly. Interestingly (or not), most labor advocates at DL see it that way, while the NoWay crowd still buys into the "family" myth.
Mmmm not so much...
Kev3188
Veteran
All that jabberwocky, and 700's statement still stands.
You can throw as much in as you want to muddy the water, but in the end, it's still "at any time, for any reason."
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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if you're hung up on the verbiage that non-union employees don't have a forced manure clause that supposedly protects them from layoffs which 700 uses to justify this statement:
then reality says that DL's non-union FT employees have had better success at retaining their jobs in downturns than employees at other carriers who have supposed had language that should have protected them.
The "except in an FM" language - just like the CBAs in them - have been rendered worthless along with the job protections they are supposed to provide. And it also doesn't change that other airlines have invoked FM language when DL has managed to protect its employees, FM language or not.
DL employees know it, public teachers in WI know it, current and city workers in Detroit know it, autoworkers know it... and it is for these reasons that the labor movement continues to take one blow after another and is losing, not gaining members.
The labor movement will regain its footing in the marketplace and might have a chance of convincing DL employees of their worth when they can provide benefits that DL employees can't get elsewhere.
jabberwocky. cute word.
family or not, culture or not, economics trump.
then reality says that DL's non-union FT employees have had better success at retaining their jobs in downturns than employees at other carriers who have supposed had language that should have protected them.
The "except in an FM" language - just like the CBAs in them - have been rendered worthless along with the job protections they are supposed to provide. And it also doesn't change that other airlines have invoked FM language when DL has managed to protect its employees, FM language or not.
DL employees know it, public teachers in WI know it, current and city workers in Detroit know it, autoworkers know it... and it is for these reasons that the labor movement continues to take one blow after another and is losing, not gaining members.
The labor movement will regain its footing in the marketplace and might have a chance of convincing DL employees of their worth when they can provide benefits that DL employees can't get elsewhere.
jabberwocky. cute word.
family or not, culture or not, economics trump.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
- 21,709
- 10,721
DL employees know all that... but you conveniently forget the growth of NYC - which more than increased the amount of mainline flying that DL did at DFW, the acquisition of the 717s that brings back the 50 seat RJ flying that was in reality most of what kept CVG and MEM alive, the insourcing of maintenance from other carriers that amounts to 1/4 of what DL spends to maintain its own fleet....
shall ***I**** continue?
the reality, once again, is that DL has done a better job of rebuilding its business in such a way that it provides job stability to its own employees.
And, in your ZEAL to show the cuts that DL has made, you NEVER talk about the cuts that other airlines have made... such as that DL mainline employees handle more RJ flying in ATL than all but a couple other mainline hubs in the US, including any UA hub.
You don't want to talk about the outsourcing across the ENTIRE maintenance operation, because if you do, then you are forced to admit that US has the highest rate of outsourcing among US carriers....
You try to ignore that DL had the lowest percentage of jobs cuts by network carriers post 9/11 except for AA which is now collecting on the jobs it retained, with interest.
and I COULD go on....
but DL employees do know the difference and that is why your continued attempts at trying to unilaterally paint a picture that DL employees know to be otherwise falls flat on its face -and only damages the potentially credible claims the labor movement might possibly make.
DL people expect balance in the conversation. You don't come close to being able to provide it.
shall ***I**** continue?
the reality, once again, is that DL has done a better job of rebuilding its business in such a way that it provides job stability to its own employees.
And, in your ZEAL to show the cuts that DL has made, you NEVER talk about the cuts that other airlines have made... such as that DL mainline employees handle more RJ flying in ATL than all but a couple other mainline hubs in the US, including any UA hub.
You don't want to talk about the outsourcing across the ENTIRE maintenance operation, because if you do, then you are forced to admit that US has the highest rate of outsourcing among US carriers....
You try to ignore that DL had the lowest percentage of jobs cuts by network carriers post 9/11 except for AA which is now collecting on the jobs it retained, with interest.
and I COULD go on....
but DL employees do know the difference and that is why your continued attempts at trying to unilaterally paint a picture that DL employees know to be otherwise falls flat on its face -and only damages the potentially credible claims the labor movement might possibly make.
DL people expect balance in the conversation. You don't come close to being able to provide it.
Kev3188
Veteran
if you're hung up on the verbiage that non-union employees don't have a forced manure clause that supposedly protects them from layoffs which 700 uses to justify this statement:
then reality says that DL's non-union FT employees have had better success at retaining their jobs in downturns than employees at other carriers who have supposed had language that should have protected them.
The "except in an FM" language - just like the CBAs in them - have been rendered worthless along with the job protections they are supposed to provide. And it also doesn't change that other airlines have invoked FM language when DL has managed to protect its employees, FM language or not.
DL employees know it, public teachers in WI know it, current and city workers in Detroit know it, autoworkers know it... and it is for these reasons that the labor movement continues to take one blow after another and is losing, not gaining members.
The labor movement will regain its footing in the marketplace and might have a chance of convincing DL employees of their worth when they can provide benefits that DL employees can't get elsewhere.
jabberwocky. cute word.
family or not, culture or not, economics trump.
All the "yes, buts" in the world can't change the fact that "at any time, for any reason" stands.
Until you can definitively- and specifically- show otherwise, 700's point about being able to layoff at will stands.
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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to use your language, I have REPEATEDLY and DEFINITIVELY showed that labor theory doesn't play out in the world real world the way the labor movement would like to believe it does.
At any time, for any reason is exactly how airlines, industry, and governments have been able to rip up the terms of CBAs.
Workers in the US - including those at DL - expect to see something with more teeth.
I'm glad you are committed to the labor movement - but it MUST come up with a better track record and better ideas if it wants to retain workers inside and outside of the airline industry - and convince employees who have never believed in the labor movement that unionization is worth their while.
If you find those answers, you win.
I say go for it, Kev. And may you succeed in all you do.
At any time, for any reason is exactly how airlines, industry, and governments have been able to rip up the terms of CBAs.
Workers in the US - including those at DL - expect to see something with more teeth.
I'm glad you are committed to the labor movement - but it MUST come up with a better track record and better ideas if it wants to retain workers inside and outside of the airline industry - and convince employees who have never believed in the labor movement that unionization is worth their while.
If you find those answers, you win.
I say go for it, Kev. And may you succeed in all you do.
Kev3188
Veteran
That's not the question currently being asked.
Again, 700's assertion stands....
WorldTraveler
Corn Field
- Dec 5, 2003
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No, your statement is categorically wrong. It was pages ago and it still is.
Just because there is no FM clause does not mean that you are laid off.
Being non-union simply means a company doesn't have to come up with an excuse to lay off a bunch of people which they could have done anyway and history shows the airlines have done with considerable success, whether an FM existed or not.
Calling someone else "deflecting" when you try to rewrite the definition of "outsourcing" in order to fit a definition that allows 70% of the jobs that you were charged to protect in order to preserve a handful is indeed rich.
Deflection is failing to admit that the reason why the labor movement is broken is precisely because United Airlines has been able to fly all of their 787s in formation thru the holes that the unions left in the contracts they negotiated and which has allowed thousands of jobs to be lost OUTSIDE of BK - all the while labor leaders on this forum are trying to convince DL employees that unions are all those DL employees really need.
Glenn Quagmire
Veteran
- Apr 30, 2012
- 4,825
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"Citing SARS, Northwest Invokes Clause to Allow Layoffs
By MICHELINE MAYNARD
Published: May 09, 2003
Correction Appended
Northwest Airlines, citing a decline in Asian traffic because of the outbreak of severe acute respiratory syndrome, has invoked an emergency clause in its labor contracts that allows it to lay off employees without notice.
The action is the first by an airline to invoke the clause, called force majeure, in response to the illness, known as SARS. Airlines around the world have experienced double-digit declines in traffic to Asia, where Northwest and United Airlines are the two major American carriers.
Officials of the union representing Northwest's mechanics, which was informed of the move in a letter from Northwest on Tuesday, said yesterday that the airline was exaggerating the impact of SARS as part of its campaign to win $1 billion in wage and benefit concessions from its unionized workers.
''What if we come back and say, 'No way, we're not giving concessions to Northwest again?' '' said James Atkinson, president of the union, Local 33 of the Aircraft Mechanics Fraternal Association. ''If that happens, here's their answer: 'We're invoking force majeure and taking out another 1,000 technicians.' ''
..."Northwest's chief executive, Richard Anderson, said last month that the airline was in danger of entering Chapter 11 if it could not obtain wage and benefit cuts. Yesterday, Ms. Stanik said the force majeure declaration was ''another example of Northwest's continuing efforts to communicate to its unions the current economic realities.''
..."Kevin Mitchell, chairman of the Business Travel Coalition, a trade group for corporate travel departments and business travelers, said that Northwest was risking its credibility by citing SARS as a reason for force majeure, when its Asian business represents only one-quarter of its flights.
''At a time in the industry when we have reached the lowest of low points in terms of trust between employees and management, to use this kind of heavy-handed tactic to wring concessions is, I think, a very counterproductive approach,'' he said.
Yep, that was the Richard we all came to know and love.
http://www.nytimes.com/2003/05/09/business/citing-sars-northwest-invokes-clause-to-allow-layoffs.html
That was the last layoff of mine prior to my permanent departure from the company on Augsut 19, 2005. The only airline strike in history where all badges were confiscated, lockers made to be cleared out, tool boxes removed, and workers escorted from the premises. NWA never made any plan on us coming back, only us leaving. That horse has been beaten to death, so that will be my only comment on that.
700 is correct on the Force Majuere clause. That is only used to get around a union protection clause, which Delta did not have at the time (except for the ALPA pilots).
Force Majeure defined:
"Standard clause found in construction and supply contracts, it exempts the contracting parties from fulfilling their contractual obligations for causes that could not be anticipated and/or are beyond their control. These causes usually include act of God, act of man, act of parliament, and other impersonal events or occurrences. French for, superior force. Also called irresistible force."
Note the word "contracts" used throughout. Only Delta employees covered by a CBA would have needed a declaration of Force Majuere to lay off outside of the scope.
Read more: http://www.businessdictionary.com/definition/force-majeure.html#ixzz2f5R3JB1j
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