744s

LukeAisleWalker

Veteran
Sep 29, 2007
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Trying to get insight into a rumour I just heard: That the BOD was considering a vote on getting rid of the 744s due to fuel costs and the bad economy. And that's why we haven't heard much lately about them being redone (interiors). I thought they were supposed to begin going in to be revamped starting this month but not a word about it which leads me to believe that maybe there is some truth to this rumour.
Any one hear anything on this??
Thanks.
 
Trying to get insight into a rumour I just heard: That the BOD was considering a vote on getting rid of the 744s due to fuel costs and the bad economy. And that's why we haven't heard much lately about them being redone (interiors). I thought they were supposed to begin going in to be revamped starting this month but not a word about it which leads me to believe that maybe there is some truth to this rumour.
Any one hear anything on this??
Thanks.

You certain about cabin upgrades supposed to be starting next month?.... the Flight Ops update I saw from July 1 mentioned the flat bed mods starting "next spring" on the 744 fleet, with the entire international fleet having the enhanced 35" pitch economy product by "end of summer 2012".
 
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Luke,
as you probably know, the PMNW fleet is composed of two "generations" of aircraft - the majority are around 20 years old and the rest are closer to 10 years.
Replacing the interiors on these aircraft could well be close to a $10M job so DL is not likely to do it unless the planes will fly for 5 or more years. (and that holds true for major mods on other fleet types - part of why they are not moving forward w/ AVOD on the 320s and more of the 757 fleet since large portions of both of those fleets could be replaced in 3-5 years w/ the 739 order).
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The 744 is not a terribly fuel efficient aircraft compared to newer technology aircraft like the 77W but DL/NW have reported fairly competitive CASMs on the 744 to the DOT, partly because the aircraft in NW's config were fairly high density. NW also obtained very good lease rates on most of the 744s in BK.
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I think a large factor in getting rid of these aircraft will be that they are too large in the winter. You can tell from DL's financial reports that they have done a very good job of increasing revenue in the Pacific, both by strengthening the NRT hub w/ new service and feeding more traffic over existing routes, but also because of the new DTW and SEA to Asia flying; both sets of new routes have posted very healthy revenue numbers w/ the DOT.

But it is very hard to keep all of the new capacity in place plus maintain the NRT hub during the winter when demand falls off; even though the new nonstops are generating good yields, DL has to pull them down in order to keep the NRT hub intact year round.
Thus, traffic that could fly at higher fares over the new DTW and SEA routes is forced to fly through NRT at lower fares.
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The strong yen has helped DL increase the percent of Japan local traffic but DL mgmt knows this won't continue forever... thus it becomes necessary to keep a sustainable level of flow/local traffic at NRT year round as well as continue to develop and maintain nonstop flights from the US mainland to points throughout Asia; UA now has 3 US gateways/hubs from the US to China all of which maintain year round daily service so DL must be able to compete on a reasonably comparable basis - and UA also has the NRT hub option.
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As you probably know, DL is putting the 332 on DTW-HND as of next spring when it restarts which indicates that they are moving forward w/ the performance improvement package and whatever cockpit crew rest facilities are necessary to satisfy ALPA on 12+ hour flights. But it adds 10 12+ hr aircraft to the fleet and the 332 w/ the PIP is capable of 14 hr flights. The 763ER lie flat/winglet program is moving forward and that aircraft is good for almost 13 hr flights. The 332 becomes capable of flying from the midwest to Japan and both the 332 and 763ER can fly much of NE Asia from SEA - or Japan from LAX. With both aircraft, DL is able to move forward w/ fragmenting the Pacific just as the 763ER did over the Atlantic; hubs become less important and the ability to overfly NRT increases.
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There was also talk for a number of years that DL was interested in acquiring used 772ERs which are supposed to eventually get winglets; DL calculates that like the 763ER, the cost of operating the 777ER is not than much less than newer technology aircraft like the 787 when you factor in the cost of the debt associated w/ acquiring newer technology aircraft.
DL and NW have both long believed that it is cheaper to acquire used aircraft one generation old, refurb them, and operate them for 5-10 more years than it is to buy new current generation aircraft.
With the new interiors, the 767 and 777 are competitive from a passenger perspective with any new generation aircraft.
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DL is not about to give up its position at NRT and w/ smaller aircraft, DL can continue to operate every one of its existing slots... but it might be on smaller aircraft with a higher percentage of local Japan traffic while smaller aircraft than the 744 will be used across the Pacific from the NRT hub. By reducing the amount of flow traffic through NRT, DL can maintain its current market share in Japan even though it will use smaller aircraft. The new HNL-FUK route demonstrates that there is a lot more of Japan that can be opened/reopened using smaller aircraft.
 
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elosen,
Thanks. I didn't realize that was the (new) timetable for these a/c to be refurbished. I could have sworn it was starting in the fall/winter when they aren't utilized as much.

World,
Thanks for the info but not exactly sure how it all answers my question. Do your statistics and ruminations serve to inform us that they may indeed get rid of the 744 or keep them on for 5 more years?? In other words, what is your opinon based on your information???
 
Also..there is rumour that LAX-SYD will be moved to 744 for (their) summer season. If these a/c aren't going to be redone until next year, I can't imagine that they would put this product (no lie-flats, no AVOD) on such a competitive route!! But I also heard it's because they have to move 744s out of DTW due to upcoming runway repairs.
 
Also..there is rumour that LAX-SYD will be moved to 744 for (their) summer season. If these a/c aren't going to be redone until next year, I can't imagine that they would put this product (no lie-flats, no AVOD) on such a competitive route!! But I also heard it's because they have to move 744s out of DTW due to upcoming runway repairs.
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I doubt that the 744 will fly SYD in its present configuration.(everyone has lie flat seats) I fly that trip and we have heard nothing from anyone involved with this trip about the 744. We do hear of Brisbane three days a week but that has to do with Virgin Australia wanting to trade authority so that they can fly to SFO instead.The delay if there is one on the interior mods on the 744 may have to do with the two 744 that are we were told are going on full time MAC charters . Plus one 744 cpmes out of the desert this spring after mods for the summer.
 
I doubt that the 744 will fly SYD in its present configuration.(everyone has lie flat seats) I fly that trip and we have heard nothing from anyone involved with this trip about the 744. We do hear of Brisbane three days a week but that has to do with Virgin Australia wanting to trade authority so that they can fly to SFO instead.The delay if there is one on the interior mods on the 744 may have to do with the two 744 that are we were told are going on full time MAC charters . Plus one 744 cpmes out of the desert this spring after mods for the summer.

Meto--you pilot or f/a?
I actually heard this from a 777LR pilot who also flies SYD. To be fair, he did not state it as fact--merely passing on the rumour mill.
But I agree with you. It would not make sense to fly this extremely competitive route with an a/c interior from the 1980s.
 
Luke,
it depends on how aggressively DL will develop the rest of its Asian network. DL is thinking about adding several new secondary cities in China, some of which do not have any direct air service to the US. DL also needs to develop a west coast gateway to Asia not unlike what they have done from DTW in order to be competitive.
In time I do believe DL will build a stronger network outside of Japan but will still keep NRT as a hub w/ less local traffic. The beauty of a hub is you can change the amount of local vs. flow traffic based on the market; and the size of the aircraft used is one way of accomplishing that.
I don't think there will be any downgrading of NRT flights until more Japan overflights are built up.
Even if the decision is made to get rid of the 744s, it won't happen overnight. Many of DL and NW's leased fleet is on leases that expire in 2014-2015; DL has decide the future of the 744 fleet because they won't get renovated interiors and then flown for just 2-3 years.
BTW< there was also a rumor that GRU was going to get a 744 but it has also died out; like SYD, GRU has plenty of premium configured aircraft so adding the 744 would be a step back in service. DL is adding the 764 to JFK-GRU so DL will have the 764 on two of the GRU routes.
I heard the SYD rumor also but doubt if DL will move forward on either if the 744 interior mods won't start before spring.
SYD and GRU are the most likely cities that COULD have used the 744 in the northern winter.
I haven't seen any confirmation that the 744 interior mods won't start, though - and I'm not hearing anyone saying it has been confirmed - but would like to know if that is the case.
 
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One of my pmNW pilot friends confirmed that the first aircraft to be modded is already at PEK.

That said, if the decision is going to be made, I'd expect that it would be announced with 3Q earnings next month. Unless things are really bad, there's no rush with leases not expiring for a few years. I'd guess 12-24 months to wind down the fleet and do crew bumps in an orderly fashion once a decision is made.
 
thanks for the update, E.
I doubt if DL could cancel the whole 744 interior mod program right now even if it wanted to... I'm sure they had to sign a contract and make a deposit for at least a portion of the fleet, even if there is some flexibility in the number that ultimately will be converted. A manufacturer doesn't just whip out 16 - or now 14 - shipsets of seats w/o a non-cancellable commitment.
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Also, the 744s and 777s are fenced aircraft under the pilot agreement for several more years- perhaps Jan 2015 IIRC. If DL pulls down the 744 fleet too fast they might be forced to pay 744 pilots at those pay rates even if they aren't on that aircraft... and they can't step down to the 777.
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I suspect that if anything, the 744 fleet will not be reduced any further beyond the 2 which are apparently being retired now until 2015 which is also the date many of the leases come up for renewal. DL still could renew some of the leases for a few years longer which would extend the 744 fleet until the tail end of the recent 739ER deliveries... or they could start replacing the 744s as early as 2015.
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DL probably could start finding high quality used 772ERs by 2015 and the 777 winglet program could be available by then.
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As a side note, I looked at cargo loads via DOT data on AA, CO, DL, and UA's routes from Asia to ORD, DTW, and EWR. UA's cargo loads on its 744 routes to/from China (HKG) are far lower than competitor routes operator on 777s. And it is also worth noting that DL's 777LR on HKG-DTW carries far more cargo than any of the other HKG-midwest/NE US carrier routes. Most of the cities where DL uses the 77LR have higher cargo loads than competitors on similar routes. The 777 is an outstanding cargo airplane; the LR extends the capabilities even further.
Since current fuel prices mean that carriers can probably only profitably fill the 100 extra seats between a 772 and a 744 at profitable rates only during the summer yet the 744 burns 40% more fuel year round and carries less cargo, it should not be a surprise to see DL and UA both replace the 744 as additional 777s and 789s become available.
 
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Raked wings wont get winglets, they are more efficient than a wing with winglets, they werent designed for winglets.
 
The 772ER is planned to get wingets like the 763ER; for the reasons you mention, the 77L and the 764 will not.
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Boeing is not wanting to improve the efficiencies of the 772ER "too much" until the 787 is in service and orders continue to hold up.
 
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