AA flight attendants raising $64,000 question

[FWAAA]

My wife is a 25 year FA at AA, and she has never made over $45K a year working full time. You can talk in circles all you want, the pay stub doesn't lie. Even if there were some flight attendants making over $64K per year, they had to be damn near living at work to do it. Using AA management's logic, why not factor in the average of all FAs part time side jobs as well? Right...

If the top 3,000 FAs earn an average of $64k, that does not mean that the top 3,000 FAs each earns at least $64k. It means that the average earnings of that group is $64k. In order for that group to earn an average of $64k, some will of course earn more and some will earn less. Simple math tells us that the total W-2 earnings for that group of $3,000 is about $192 million, resulting in an average of about $64,000 each. According to AA, the top 5% of FAs (ranked by earnings) averaged $93k, with some earning over $100k.

Individual FAs can mail their paystubs and W-2s to the judge, but unless he gets W-2s from all 15,500 active FAs, those paystubs and W-2s won't prove that AA or Vaughn was untruthful. Vaughn said that the top 3,000 FAs have average W-2 earnings of $64k.

From the numbers you posted, it souds like your wife is just about the average FA. According to AA, the average AA FA flies just over 700 hours each year and is paid for about 900 hours each year. At $45k, that describes your wife. She's not in the top 3,000 who, as you point out, "had to be damn near living at work."

 

[FWAAA]

And, where did you get your statistics? IF they are accurate (and that's a big if in my book), you are either AA management posting what should be confidential information, or you are being fed the data from someone in AA management, or like management, you are just making it up as you go along.

None of the above. Most of the data is contained within this document, which I linked earlier in the thread:

http://www.amrcaseinfo.com/pdflib/2041_15463.pdf

Caution: it's over 6,500 pages (very big and slow document). Vaughn's declaration begins at page 2,241.

Ah, yes. The old tried and true method of attacking the poster instead of the post. Obviously the data came from AA - they are the only source of this data. Vaughn filed his declaration under oath - under penalty of perjury. But of course, since he works for AA, he is obviously a liar willing to perjure himself.

 

[Mr Red]

None of the above. Most of the data is contained within this document, which I linked earlier in the thread:

http://www.amrcaseinfo.com/pdflib/2041_15463.pdf

Caution: it's over 6,500 pages (very big and slow document). Vaughn's declaration begins at page 2,241.

Ah, yes. The old tried and true method of attacking the poster instead of the post. Obviously the data came from AA - they are the only source of this data. Vaughn filed his declaration under oath - under penalty of perjury. But of course, since he works for AA, he is obviously a liar willing to perjure himself.

Anybody that thinks that after almost 20% pay cuts and no cost of living, let alone pay raises for almost a decade,
any labor group at AA is overpaid is clearly not living in reality !!

 

[FWAAA]

Anybody that thinks that after almost 20% pay cuts and no cost of living, let alone pay raises for almost a decade,
any labor group at AA is overpaid is clearly not living in reality !!

Nice strawman. Nowhere in this thread have I claimed that anyone is "overpaid." In fact, Vaughn's point (for anyone who bothered to read his declaration) was merely that:

Significantly, flight attendants who do choose to work a full schedule are well
compensated for their efforts:

Nothing there about being "overpaid."

 

[AANOTOK]

This is exactly why I visit this forum. When I'm not sure what I make or know how my contract reads, I can call on FWAAA and a few others to clarify it for me. There is not doubt this site is a godsend for us blue collar workers.

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

I've seen a few stories that the flight attendants union has walked away from the table and will not negotiate any more. How do FAs on this board feel about that?

I don't work for AA, but this move strikes me as terribly irresponsible toward the well-being of the union's members. They have literally walked away from their primary duty.

 

[eolesen]

This is exactly why I visit this forum. When I'm not sure what I make or know how my contract reads, I can call on FWAAA and a few others to clarify it for me. There is not doubt this site is a godsend for us blue collar workers.

Yeah, well, after 14 years of reading these boards and the ones at PlaneBusiness.com, one thing I've learned is that there are far more union members who have no idea what their contract says or means than there are who do. I'm not sure if it's because the language is just too damn lawyerish, or because they just don't care as long as the paycheck shows up every 7-15 days.

 

[AANOTOK]

Yeah, well, after 14 years of reading these boards and the ones at PlaneBusiness.com, one thing I've learned is that there are far more union members who have no idea what their contract says or means than there are who do. I'm not sure if it's because the language is just too damn lawyerish, or because they just don't care as long as the paycheck shows up every 7-15 days.

I would say the latter, but sadly, you're probably right.

 

[kirkpatrick]

For the 12 months ended November, 2011, more than 7,100 AA FAs flew fewer than 720 block hours -

If they chose to drop trips and fly less, then they were paid accordingly. Those who chose to pick up those trips were paid more for flying more. It doesn't affect the headcount. If two FAs have schedules totalling 150 hrs in a month and one flies 50 and the other 100, it's still two FAs and 150 hrs being paid.

Personally, I agree with the company in that I think all FAs should have to fly a minimum amount to stay on the seniority list. Not flying at all isn't fair to the rest of us. And I agree that those who fly very low time should accrue less vacation and sick time. But the company numbers are way out of whack. In fact a domestic FA at top of scale flying a 75 hr month makes $3220 base pay and $264.50 in overtime for a total of $3484.5 or $41,814 per year.

MK

 

[kirkpatrick]

Yeah, well, after 14 years of reading these boards and the ones at PlaneBusiness.com, one thing I've learned is that there are far more union members who have no idea what their contract says or means than there are who do.

Some people are numbers people and some aren't. My wife is a teacher and has a straight salary which never varies. It's easy to remember one number. Flight crew contracts (and other groups) have more complicated work rules which are often subject to interpretation.

MK

 

[usa1]

Warning ..... the next tactic will be to turn work groups against one another. Been there.

 

[jersey777]

I've seen a few stories that the flight attendants union has walked away from the table and will not negotiate any more. How do FAs on this board feel about that?

I don't work for AA, but this move strikes me as terribly irresponsible toward the well-being of the union's members. They have literally walked away from their primary duty.

"Oh oh oh oh....." just think Arnold Horseshack!!

Let me answer this as an APFA flight attendant.


After meeting with the management of AA for nearly 3 years during regular negotiations and then meeting with same group of people post bankruptcy and not getting anywhere, the leaders of the APFA have decided to concentrate their time and effort in arguing their position in front of Judge Lane. "Negotiating" with AA is, and has been, a charade. My belief is that the APFA , and all the unions, are talking to USAir, maybe others, and basically dismissing the idea that Tom Horton will be the leader of American Airlines...if there is an American Airlines....in 6 months. Their business plan that has been in effect for the last 7 years is the same one that they propose going forward and there has been nearly universal agreement among "analysts" that it is deeply flawed. The unions, holding 3 seats on the UCC are listening to other business plans that have more vision and viability and that frankly don't gut our contracts as deeply as AA has proposed. Will it work? I don't know....but I am encouraged about a future with a new business plan and with new management. The next several weeks will prove very very interesting.

So, in short, to answer your question, they ARE doing their primary duty and that is to protect the long term interests of their members.

 

[FWAAA]

If they chose to drop trips and fly less, then they were paid accordingly. Those who chose to pick up those trips were paid more for flying more. It doesn't affect the headcount. If two FAs have schedules totalling 150 hrs in a month and one flies 50 and the other 100, it's still two FAs and 150 hrs being paid.

True, but the broader point is that nearly half of the active FAs didn't fly 720 hours - and I posted that to counter jimntx when he said " Relatively speaking, very few working f/as fly less than their assigned line each month--in fact, most try to pick up extra flying." Turns out that thousands of FAs don't fly a full schedule month after month after month. If you don't break 720 flight hours, then you're averaging fewer than 60 block hours per month, and AA has 7,100 FAs in that category.

Personally, I agree with the company in that I think all FAs should have to fly a minimum amount to stay on the seniority list. Not flying at all isn't fair to the rest of us. And I agree that those who fly very low time should accrue less vacation and sick time. But the company numbers are way out of whack. In fact a domestic FA at top of scale flying a 75 hr month makes $3220 base pay and $264.50 in overtime for a total of $3484.5 or $41,814 per year.

I posted this topic to highlight the disconnect between what Vaughn alleged and the rebuttals from various FAs.

Let's focus on what Vaughn did not say: He did not say that flight attendants who average 75 paid hours each month earn an average of $64k.

What he did allege is that AA flight attendants who fly at least 70 block hours each and every month average $64k.

What's the difference, you say? Turns out that the 3,000 FAs who fly a minimum of 70 hours for each of the 12 months actually fly a lot more than 840 block hours each year (and, of course, have paid hours in excess of their block hours) and thus, that group of 3,000 FAs (the top 20%) earn an average of $64k.

That there are FAs out there who don't make $64k as in your example above does not disprove Vaughn's point.

I can understand the difference between the two; I'm certain the judge can tell the difference and I'll bet even the APFA's own economist Dan Akins can tell the difference. It's distressing to see that so many AA FAs cannot apparently tell the difference and are mailing their pay stubs and W-2s to the judge in a laughable attempt to prove that Vaughn is a liar.

I'll post it again - AA pointed out that FAs who fly a full schedule every month are well-compensated and earn an average of $64k. To arrive at an average of $64k, some no doubt earn more and some no doubt earn less, and the average (the mean) pay of that group of 3,000 is $64k. Thousands of FAs don't earn $64k. Nobody disputes that. But that has nothing to do with the accuracy of Vaughn's statements. The 7,100 FAs who don't even fly 720 block hours a year could not possibly earn $64k. But AA has 15,500 active FAs, and some of them fly a whole lot more than 720 block hours.

The top 5% of AA's FAs (that would be the top 750 of them) earn an average of $93k.

It's distressing to see the reading comprehension deficit so readily apparent in the "I don't earn $64k so Vaughn is a liar" rebuttals filed by FAs with the bankruptcy court.

 

[ord78]

It's distressing to see the reading comprehension deficit so readily apparent in the "I don't earn $64k so Vaughn is a liar" rebuttals filed by FAs with the bankruptcy court.

I have stayed off this thread because it is so inane and frankly, insulting. Reading comprehension has nothing to do with it and you do yourself disservice by saying so. Vaughn has been an opaque unreasonable twit for years, a mere mouthpiece who is extremely good at semantics and at some unfathomable form of logic. Any reasonable person knows that figures don't lie, and anyone who can read modern business tactics know that liars can figure. We all know the difference between average and median and it speaks loudly as to why the former and not the latter was and is used by Vaughn and yourself in these discussions and in his submissions to the court.

If Bill Gates walks into a bar the AVERAGE wealth of everyone in that bar goes through the roof even if they're broke. The MEDIAN, well, that is a very very different story. You know that, so does Vaughn and you both should know better. But whats the point? You both are determined to beat this unprovable, but believable dead horse.

And yeah, I'll add my voice to that chorus you so easily chide. At 35 years I know more than half the base here at IOR and I have neither heard of nor know anyone who has made more than 70,000. I fly high time, in excess of 90 per month, and many months far in excess of that, and have yet to break 62,000.

Will the judge buy Vaughn's argument, YES. Is it a semantical tap dance, YES. Will it get MY company back to profitability? NO, NO and NO. Do you and the other shills here get a chance yet another chance because of this post to berate and belittle the very people who save lives by the hundreds every year on AA aircraft with medical intervention? yes.

So go ahead.

 

[damajagua]

I flew 1680 hours last year. Made $97,000.
The $64,000 for 70 makes no sense.
I flew an average of 140 hours a month.
I should have made $128,000
If the average f/a that works 70 hous makes $64K

Sorry but the numbers just don't add up.

The average for a top of the scale international
f/a like me is more like $48,000 for 70 hours
of flying.