Acc. To Delta: Combined FA Workforce "Most Likely" to vote again.

[JakesWorld]

Yankee

Here is a paragraph from UAL's press release:

"UAL said it will lower its planned 2008 spending by $400 million and eliminate 500 salaried and management jobs and 600 union jobs by the end of the year. UAL also said it will cut capacity 9 percent by the fourth quarter, on top of a 5 percent reduction in the fourth quarter of 2007, and take 10 to 15 more narrow-body aircraft out of its operating fleet for a total of 30 to be grounded."

Can you let me know where F/A furloughs are mentioned, or where you received your information? The defined furlough plan in UA's contract, is it similar to offering leaves like we at DL do? Even with AFA and date-of-hire, do you realize how many current DL F/A's will be at the bottom of the list and subject to furlough? Our DL F/A's will take a big hit with date of hire.

On another note, I am curious about how the UA F/A's felt about date-of-hire back in 2000-2001 when the UA-US merger was proposed. I was under the assumption (assumption only) that UA F/A's were not real happy with date-of-hire. UA F/A's your thoughts/opinions on this would be greatly appreciated.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Yankee

Here is a paragraph from UAL's press release:

"UAL said it will lower its planned 2008 spending by $400 million and eliminate 500 salaried and management jobs and 600 union jobs by the end of the year. UAL also said it will cut capacity 9 percent by the fourth quarter, on top of a 5 percent reduction in the fourth quarter of 2007, and take 10 to 15 more narrow-body aircraft out of its operating fleet for a total of 30 to be grounded."

Can you let me know where F/A furloughs are mentioned, or where you received your information? The defined furlough plan in UA's contract, is it similar to offering leaves like we at DL do? Even with AFA and date-of-hire, do you realize how many current DL F/A's will be at the bottom of the list and subject to furlough? Our DL F/A's will take a big hit with date of hire.

On another note, I am curious about how the UA F/A's felt about date-of-hire back in 2000-2001 when the UA-US merger was proposed. I was under the assumption (assumption only) that UA F/A's were not real happy with date-of-hire. UA F/A's your thoughts/opinions on this would be greatly appreciated.

So Jake, are you saying that with a 9% capacity cut that UAL will not be trimming the FA ranks?
Also, are you suggesting that even with a non DOH integration of the DL-NW FA seniority list (whatever that may turn out to be), that no original DL FAs would be furloughed? Where do your assumptions/information come from? Please explain. Can you please be more definitive?
Also, not being a UAL FA, I cannot answer for them but I can say that the proportion of US FAs to UAL FAs at the time was about 1/3. ...very similar to the proportion back during the Western merger. Western/DL was basically date of hire and it was a success. Were you employed by DL during the Western merger??

 

[JakesWorld]

Jake--"better flying" is subjective. I know you may not have considered this, but not all FAs are interested in International flying...the body clock changes/flying all night, the extra work for a buck more an hour, the expense on the layovers, the being so far away from home if you have a sick parent or child...many reasons.

And let me ask you this: how come when I pose questions on this board, some on your side of the argument never answer them. You do pretty well but you've never acknowledged the other reasons some DL FAs want a union...As Yankeestu also posed. (What about the drug-testing debaucle of 2000??)
You also have not answered if you have experienced a merger before. I've posed the question to get a background on your feelings/experiences. Cajun Flyer says any union but AFA, yet, when I asked her if he/she had done anything to get another union active w/ DL, he/she doesn't answer me. Cajun seems so "short-sighted", he/she is wishing for the merger to fall through so he/she can continue to hold his/her international trip.
My point is that you often say Danny does not provide you with all info, or half info. But your side, apparently, does the same thing. I think it's human nature in order to "win" the debate.

Have I experienced a merger....yes and I guess I was a little too young and naive to care. It's not just about intl flying, its about the size of each carrier, how many aircraft, domestic/european/asian/latin-south american flying. If you place both airlines side by side one is larger than the other. The NW and DL F/A's had different expectaions of what one will be flying at 5/10/15/20 years, how long it takes to get off reserve. I have a feeling that if you were to compare both LAX bases, ATL and DTW or MSP, both NYC bases, or CVG and MEM. (for lack of a better way to phrase it), you would reach things quicker at DL. I could be wrong, this is the way I see it. Who knows if it goes date of hire, what I think may happen may never happen.
Luke I may not be voting for AFA, but I don't think I am on a side. I am just speaking out and sharing my opinion. If you look back through some of my post, you will see I have been honest and provided information even when it shows being non-union in a bad light, i.e. the Song situation/debacle. On the drug testing thing, that I see both sides (thats a tough one to answer). If you can prove that you are not a user and the results were wrong, then that should be it (I know in a perfect world). On the other hand one of my very GOOD friends is heavily involved with another F/A union (not AFA), he has shared some stories with my that make my toes curl. F/A test positive, rehab, gets job back within 2 months and required to submit to random testing. F/A gets tested again (non DOT) positive, rehab, 2months later gets job back. The only thing that breaks the cycle is a 2nd DOT test. Some of the things a union does is not always in the best interest of the F/A. Sometimes the union just enables various forms of behavior that destroys the individual, just so they can keep this job. Again, this is just my observation an opinion. I am not saying its right, it is just my opinion.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Have I experienced a merger....yes and I guess I was a little too young and naive to care. It's not just about intl flying, its about the size of each carrier, how many aircraft, domestic/european/asian/latin-south american flying. If you place both airlines side by side one is larger than the other. The NW and DL F/A's had different expectaions of what one will be flying at 5/10/15/20 years, how long it takes to get off reserve. I have a feeling that if you were to compare both LAX bases, ATL and DTW or MSP, both NYC bases, or CVG and MEM. (for lack of a better way to phrase it), you would reach things quicker at DL. I could be wrong, this is the way I see it. Who knows if it goes date of hire, what I think may happen may never happen.
Luke I may not be voting for AFA, but I don't think I am on a side. I am just speaking out and sharing my opinion. If you look back through some of my post, you will see I have been honest and provided information even when it shows being non-union in a bad light, i.e. the Song situation/debacle. On the drug testing thing, that I see both sides (thats a tough one to answer). If you can prove that you are not a user and the results were wrong, then that should be it (I know in a perfect world). On the other hand one of my very GOOD friends is heavily involved with another F/A union (not AFA), he has shared some stories with my that make my toes curl. F/A test positive, rehab, gets job back within 2 months and required to submit to random testing. F/A gets tested again (non DOT) positive, rehab, 2months later gets job back. The only thing that breaks the cycle is a 2nd DOT test. Some of the things a union does is not always in the best interest of the F/A. Sometimes the union just enables various forms of behavior that destroys the individual, just so they can keep this job. Again, this is just my observation an opinion. I am not saying its right, it is just my opinion.

Jake,
You clearly aren't aware of what happened in 1999/2000. It had NOTHING to do with the FAs being users. Their urine samples came up "not consistent with human urine." The lab then halts everything. They were never even sent on to be tested for drugs. The creatinine levels were shown inconsistent w/ human urine and the samples were said to be "substituted"..grounds for termination.
Of course once it happened to a pilot and ALPA got their attorneys to investigate the lab in Kansas, it was found to have been at fault. The pilot was immediately reinstated and eventually the FAs had to be as well.
I know one of the FAs...she is definitely NOT a drug user.
So, you are presenting "opinions", yes...but they aren't always opinions rooted in fact. There's a major distinction.
As far as "career expectations" are concerned, there's no such thing in the airline business. Most of us have figured that out by now and have been flexible with it or we leave. I never expected my pension to be frozen but it was. I never expected to serve another day on reserve over 20 years ago when I got off, but I did. I never expected to see EVERY transatlantic, transpacific trip in one base disappear, but it did. I never expected to work for the same wages that I did back in 1995 but I did. I never expected to see DFW, a giant base when I started flying to even shrink, much less close, but it did. I could go on and on. This "career expectation" thing you keep bringing up has its limits.

 

[cooper43]

Jake--"better flying" is subjective. I know you may not have considered this, but not all FAs are interested in International flying...the body clock changes/flying all night, the extra work for a buck more an hour, the expense on the layovers, the being so far away from home if you have a sick parent or child...many reasons.

And let me ask you this: how come when I pose questions on this board, some on your side of the argument never answer them. You do pretty well but you've never acknowledged the other reasons some DL FAs want a union...As Yankeestu also posed. (What about the drug-testing debaucle of 2000??)
You also have not answered if you have experienced a merger before. I've posed the question to get a background on your feelings/experiences. Cajun Flyer says any union but AFA, yet, when I asked her if he/she had done anything to get another union active w/ DL, he/she doesn't answer me. Cajun seems so "short-sighted", he/she is wishing for the merger to fall through so he/she can continue to hold his/her international trip.
My point is that you often say Danny does not provide you with all info, or half info. But your side, apparently, does the same thing. I think it's human nature in order to "win" the debate.

Hi Luke


thought I would pipe in again.and again and again ......LOL Anyway for me the issue is not if we should be unionized but that I just dont agree with DOH. I am opposed to any system that doesnt allow for a review first to see if it is unfair. If it turns out that DOH is fair to both sides then I would gladly be supportive. But I am not for an automatice DOH, that could be disasterous (sp) to either group. As a f/a seniority affects so much of our life and making a hasty decision without a formal review could make a huge difference in our earning power( depending on what trips you may fly now vs. what you expect to fly as you progress through your career. In my opinion this has to be looked at and resolved before I can vote for AFA. If AFA wants my vote, they need to address this issue now.

 

[JakesWorld]

This "career expectation" thing you keep bringing up has its limits.

When I say "career expectation" it is just a term. When I look at the Nicolau Award that so many people refer to and when most seniority issues are resolved by arbitrator, they are basing the decision on career expectation. To me this is just a job, as I mentioned before, whatever happens now happens. I have no control over it. So instead of saying career expectations, I should have said, monthly bid awards, annual vacation bidding, reserve status, and such. Career expectation is just a term and you are right things have changed an they are never going to be what they were.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Hi Luke


thought I would pipe in again.and again and again ......LOL Anyway for me the issue is not if we should be unionized but that I just dont agree with DOH. I am opposed to any system that doesnt allow for a review first to see if it is unfair. If it turns out that DOH is fair to both sides then I would gladly be supportive. But I am not for an automatice DOH, that could be disasterous (sp) to either group. As a f/a seniority affects so much of our life and making a hasty decision without a formal review could make a huge difference in our earning power( depending on what trips you may fly now vs. what you expect to fly as you progress through your career. In my opinion this has to be looked at and resolved before I can vote for AFA. If AFA wants my vote, they need to address this issue now.

Cooper--
I'm sorry but my opinion is that I think you are falling into the trap that DL Mgt. wants you to fall into.
How you can honestly say that DOH is not fair is beyond me. Let me ask you this: When DL closed SEA, PDX and DFW, did they check with FAs in NYC or ATL to see if it would be "fair" for the displaced FAs to bump them off certain Int'l flying? No, of course not. Now you may say, yeah..but they were DL FAs. That's true but they didn't bring ANY new routes with them when their respective bases closed and they started commuting to NYC and ATL. With NW, there are ALSO going to be opportunities. Think of the opportunites for original DL FAs who live in the midwest and have been commuting to CVG. They are going to have even more European destinations PLUS Asia by commuting just a "stone's throw up the road" to DTW.
I'm sorry but ATL and NYC FAs have been spoiled. Now it's time for the rest of the DL system to be energized...SFO, LAX, SEA, HNL and CVG commuters. This airline is not JUST about ATL and JFK. (are you listening Cajun??)
Supervisors are meeting flights now trying to talk you into just what you're going to do...and you're falling for it.
This just in:

-Important Notice-
Concerning Delta/Northwest Seniority



Delta Flying Partners:



Delta's anti-union advisors unfortunately have dispatched Delta supervisors to meet flights and talk to us about possible seniority integration issues. Some are apparently making false statements like the following. . .



FALSE STATEMENT #1. Delta will work to staple Northwest flight attendants to the bottom of the Delta seniority list.



FALSE STATEMENT #2. Delta flight attendants may somehow obtain a better outcome in a seniority arbitration by not joining AFA.



FALSE STATEMENT #3. Finally, as a scare tactic, they are falsely stating that the Northwest flight attendants are more senior than us at Delta.



Each of the above statements is false.



IN FACT, we believe Delta supervisors are putting Delta flight attendants at jeopardy for an even worse seniority outcome by advocating an arbitration hearing over AFA's date-of-hire policy.



IN FACT, in an arbitration, without the protection of the AFA seniority merger policy, a neutral 'outsider' (Not Delta) will determine what they think is “fair and equitable.â€￾ AFA’s seniority policy protects our full, current seniority. Arbitration on Delta’s terms, or under the seniority law, does not.



IN FACT, the US Airways pilots lost nearly a decade of seniority to the America West pilots in just this kind of “fair and equitableâ€￾ arbitration hearing. We do not think it is worth the gamble! (Even our Delta pilots wouldn't arbitrate with the NWA pilots because of this very gamble!) Since we are more senior to the Northwest flight attendants, why should we be taking any risks?



It is very clear that Delta flight attendants' best seniority outcome is to join AFA and immediately obtain the date-of-hire protections in the AFA Constitution.



Finally, please document and email us any specific examples of these deliberate interference efforts – if you witness them taking place on-line (supervisor's name, location, what they said).



In unity,



Delta-AFA Communications Team

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

When I say "career expectation" it is just a term. When I look at the Nicolau Award that so many people refer to and when most seniority issues are resolved by arbitrator, they are basing the decision on career expectation. To me this is just a job, as I mentioned before, whatever happens now happens. I have no control over it. So instead of saying career expectations, I should have said, monthly bid awards, annual vacation bidding, reserve status, and such. Career expectation is just a term and you are right things have changed an they are never going to be what they were.

Then why did USAirways pilots lose out? I would think their "career expectations" would have been greater because they were the larger airline and they had European flying. The only theory as to why it favored AmWest was because they were the more junior work group as is NW...and again, despite the fact that you turn your head to the side when Danny tells you about the spreadsheets, offers up his phone number, etc...YOU LOOK AWAY.
Two things are troublesome here: You don't want to listen to reason AND again, by your comment " I have no control over it", you see yourself as a victim. I choose to take a road that, although isn't perfect (AFA) by any means, it offers me a modicum of control. Even if it's just to make sure that what happened to my friend during the drug testing debaucle never happens to me or any of the DL FAs that I care so much about.

 

[Cajun Flyer]

Cooper--
I'm sorry but my opinion is that I think you are falling into the trap that DL Mgt. wants you to fall into.
How you can honestly say that DOH is not fair is beyond me. Let me ask you this: When DL closed SEA, PDX and DFW, did they check with FAs in NYC or ATL to see if it would be "fair" for the displaced FAs to bump them off certain Int'l flying? No, of course not. Now you may say, yeah..but they were DL FAs. That's true but they didn't bring ANY new routes with them when their respective bases closed and they started commuting to NYC and ATL. With NW, there are ALSO going to be opportunities. Think of the opportunites for original DL FAs who live in the midwest and have been commuting to CVG. They are going to have even more European destinations PLUS Asia by commuting just a "stone's throw up the road" to DTW.
I'm sorry but ATL and NYC FAs have been spoiled. Now it's time for the rest of the DL system to be energized...SFO, LAX, SEA, HNL and CVG commuters. This airline is not JUST about ATL and JFK. (are you listening Cajun??)
Supervisors are meeting flights now trying to talk you into just what you're going to do...and you're falling for it.
This just in:

-Important Notice-
Concerning Delta/Northwest Seniority



Delta Flying Partners:



Delta's anti-union advisors unfortunately have dispatched Delta supervisors to meet flights and talk to us about possible seniority integration issues. Some are apparently making false statements like the following. . .



FALSE STATEMENT #1. Delta will work to staple Northwest flight attendants to the bottom of the Delta seniority list.



FALSE STATEMENT #2. Delta flight attendants may somehow obtain a better outcome in a seniority arbitration by not joining AFA.



FALSE STATEMENT #3. Finally, as a scare tactic, they are falsely stating that the Northwest flight attendants are more senior than us at Delta.



Each of the above statements is false.



IN FACT, we believe Delta supervisors are putting Delta flight attendants at jeopardy for an even worse seniority outcome by advocating an arbitration hearing over AFA's date-of-hire policy.



IN FACT, in an arbitration, without the protection of the AFA seniority merger policy, a neutral 'outsider' (Not Delta) will determine what they think is “fair and equitable.â€￾ AFA’s seniority policy protects our full, current seniority. Arbitration on Delta’s terms, or under the seniority law, does not.



IN FACT, the US Airways pilots lost nearly a decade of seniority to the America West pilots in just this kind of “fair and equitableâ€￾ arbitration hearing. We do not think it is worth the gamble! (Even our Delta pilots wouldn't arbitrate with the NWA pilots because of this very gamble!) Since we are more senior to the Northwest flight attendants, why should we be taking any risks?



It is very clear that Delta flight attendants' best seniority outcome is to join AFA and immediately obtain the date-of-hire protections in the AFA Constitution.



Finally, please document and email us any specific examples of these deliberate interference efforts – if you witness them taking place on-line (supervisor's name, location, what they said).



In unity,



Delta-AFA Communications Team

Hi Lukeaislewalker,

I'm listening I'm just not on this board every waking minute because I have other things that need getting done. You seem to be pretty bitter at this point in your career based upon your statements. I spent all of my time on reserve until getting furloughed so I don't need to be reminded how hard it's been for some others at Delta. I think I've had my share of the pain. I finally held a line for the first time the month of September 2001 in Atlanta and then got bumped all the way back to ready reserve until I was furloughed. I don't think that my not being around for a merger has any bearing on my feelings about the AFA today. I am not a Debbie Delta, I rarely talk to a supervisor and I definitely don't drink any kool-aid. I've just taken a step back and realistically looked at what the AFA has to offer and what they have not delivered on to the carriers that they represent. They told United and US Airways people that they would protect their pensions. Wrong, they were dumped in bankruptcy. They took BIG pay cuts, work rules changes, vacation changes, healthcare changes. They took cuts every way imaginable and faired no better and some worse than the flight attendants at Delta. I remember a time when they threatened CHAOS around the system when they were getting their contracts shredded in bankruptcy. Guess what? It was all smoke and no substance. If we're going to get a union and I'm not opposed to unionization, let's please get one with some effectiveness. As it stands now, AFA has not been able to get AFP's for people like you, nor have they been able to negotiate their way out of an antiquated reserve system. Again, they haven't been able to do much of anything for their members. They use fear of this and fear of that and what ifs in all of their literature. What does it matter to them and why is so important that they will take dues from thousands of flight attendants at other carriers to wage a costly campaign to unionize Delta flight attendants? It's certainly not out of the goodness of their hearts. That would be naive and foolish thinking. Do you think that Delta would negotiate a pre-merger agreement with the NWA AFA like they tried to do with NWA ALPA? Didn't happen did it? Why? Because the AFA is weak and ineffective and management at NWA has pretty much been able to run rough shod over them. AFA cannot protect the seniority of its members in Arbitration any more than Delta can but what arbitration can do on both sides is negotiate for fairness and if you look at the size and breadth of our network versus their's, we stand to retain our ability to fly certain trips (which are a much larger selection of destinations) and so will they out of their bases. I can't figure out why anyone would want it any differently.

As far as previous mergers, no I wasn't around for those. I was actually working at other jobs for 12 years prior to becoming a flight attendant. A position which helps to get a different perspective on the issues than someone who has been a flight attendant for their entire career. I did those jobs without union protection and frankly never needed it and I'm a democrat who feels that way. I've read the seniority integration agreement that was put into place for Western. While their senior people did lose some seniority, they did so basically because of "career expectations". Their most senior flight attendants would not have had the opportunity to fly the breadth of trips that senior Delta F/A's were and so they came up with a ratio for that portion of the seniority list. Some of their junior F/A's, and I've flown with a couple, did better than they expected at the other end of the spectrum. I think the list was pretty fair to everyone and it should happen that way again. With AFA there is no choice other than date of hire only and that's not fair. Based on what the AFA has done and has not done for the other carriers they've represented, I don't see any advantage of having them as our union. I will be looking into what the other unions have to offer. Those at Soutwest, Continental and American all have been able to do better than AFA and I look forward to finding out what we can do to have a shot them rather than AFA.

 

[700UW]

At least the US FAs had to negotiate with the company and the company could not just make changes.

Can you say the same about what happened to DL FAs during bankruptcy?

 

[Yankeestu]

Hi Lukeaislewalker,

I'm listening I'm just not on this board every waking minute because I have other things that need getting done. You seem to be pretty bitter at this point in your career based upon your statements. I spent all of my time on reserve until getting furloughed so I don't need to be reminded how hard it's been for some others at Delta. I think I've had my share of the pain. I finally held a line for the first time the month of September 2001 in Atlanta and then got bumped all the way back to ready reserve until I was furloughed. I don't think that my not being around for a merger has any bearing on my feelings about the AFA today. I am not a Debbie Delta, I rarely talk to a supervisor and I definitely don't drink any kool-aid. I've just taken a step back and realistically looked at what the AFA has to offer and what they have not delivered on to the carriers that they represent. They told United and US Airways people that they would protect their pensions. Wrong, they were dumped in bankruptcy. They took BIG pay cuts, work rules changes, vacation changes, healthcare changes. They took cuts every way imaginable and faired no better and some worse than the flight attendants at Delta. I remember a time when they threatened CHAOS around the system when they were getting their contracts shredded in bankruptcy. Guess what? It was all smoke and no substance. If we're going to get a union and I'm not opposed to unionization, let's please get one with some effectiveness. As it stands now, AFA has not been able to get AFP's for people like you, nor have they been able to negotiate their way out of an antiquated reserve system. Again, they haven't been able to do much of anything for their members. They use fear of this and fear of that and what ifs in all of their literature. What does it matter to them and why is so important that they will take dues from thousands of flight attendants at other carriers to wage a costly campaign to unionize Delta flight attendants? It's certainly not out of the goodness of their hearts. That would be naive and foolish thinking. Do you think that Delta would negotiate a pre-merger agreement with the NWA AFA like they tried to do with NWA ALPA? Didn't happen did it? Why? Because the AFA is weak and ineffective and management at NWA has pretty much been able to run rough shod over them. AFA cannot protect the seniority of its members in Arbitration any more than Delta can but what arbitration can do on both sides is negotiate for fairness and if you look at the size and breadth of our network versus their's, we stand to retain our ability to fly certain trips (which are a much larger selection of destinations) and so will they out of their bases. I can't figure out why anyone would want it any differently.

As far as previous mergers, no I wasn't around for those. I was actually working at other jobs for 12 years prior to becoming a flight attendant. A position which helps to get a different perspective on the issues than someone who has been a flight attendant for their entire career. I did those jobs without union protection and frankly never needed it and I'm a democrat who feels that way. I've read the seniority integration agreement that was put into place for Western. While their senior people did lose some seniority, they did so basically because of "career expectations". Their most senior flight attendants would not have had the opportunity to fly the breadth of trips that senior Delta F/A's were and so they came up with a ratio for that portion of the seniority list. Some of their junior F/A's, and I've flown with a couple, did better than they expected at the other end of the spectrum. I think the list was pretty fair to everyone and it should happen that way again. With AFA there is no choice other than date of hire only and that's not fair. Based on what the AFA has done and has not done for the other carriers they've represented, I don't see any advantage of having them as our union. I will be looking into what the other unions have to offer. Those at Soutwest, Continental and American all have been able to do better than AFA and I look forward to finding out what we can do to have a shot them rather than AFA.

As an option in voting you can still vote saying that you want union representation outside of AFA.
That is an option.

I however could give you a rather lengthy laundry list of what AFA has done for other carriers.
But I find it futile to try and fill a locked safe.

As a Delta FA, why would I try to mislead anyone? I would be working under the same contract as all Delta FA's. Why don't you use your voice to put together the best contract the industry has ever seen?
We would be the face of AFA as members. We make it work for us. Take ownership and be a part of the process instead of tearing it apart.

 

[Danny Campbell]

Cajun:

<preparing my brow for a more stern post..>

You have a lot of nerve blaming AFA for the pension plans being dumped at United or US Airways (show me WHERE AFA ever "promised' anything to the FAs at those carriers -- because AFA DIDN'T - just because your management puts crap out like that "AFA promised this and AFA promised that", you have to be more intelligent than that. They are playing your emotions when they lie to you like this. WHERE did AFA make these promises -- and since AFA "is" the FAs at these carriers, does it really make any sense?

You also have a lot of nerve blaming AFA for the current anti-worker administration (Bush) that has allowed these corporations and the courts to side against workers. AFA has had to hold a HARD LINE against these things over the past many years -- while almost every AFA carrier jumped into bankruptcy, one after the other, and used the current climate to extract concessions, dump pension and set us back 25 years. But guess what, things were even WORSE in our independant union - they had no power at all. As you compare AFA to ANY other FA union, show me WHERE any other union had to go thru bankruptcy? Did American? No. Did Continental? No. Did Southwest? No. So, you can't put the full weight of the current administration and the tactics they are allowed all on the one union that has had to deal with ALL of these bankruptcies. Unlike the other unions in the country that are representing FAs, we are the ONLY FA union that EXCLUSIVELY is made of up Flight Attendants - and when you accuse us of being motivated by anything other than what is RIGHT for our chosen profession, that is not only hurtful it is way off the mark.

As a final point, the part of me that believes we are going to come out WAY AHEAD of you in an arbitration of seniority wants to say "Bring it On !!" -- because I feel pretty confident in our ability to match or exceed DOH. The only reason I resist this, is because I don't want the "cost" of getting ahead of you in seniority to be met with the loss of any contractual protections or the likelihood that the combined carrier is going to outsource our jobs. I'm not willing to trade a contract for advancements on a seniority list...because I know where that will lead.

<ok -- I'm calm now>

Whew ! I got that off my chest.

Warmly,

Danny

 

[cooper43]

Cooper--
I'm sorry but my opinion is that I think you are falling into the trap that DL Mgt. wants you to fall into.
How you can honestly say that DOH is not fair is beyond me. Let me ask you this: When DL closed SEA, PDX and DFW, did they check with FAs in NYC or ATL to see if it would be "fair" for the displaced FAs to bump them off certain Int'l flying? No, of course not. Now you may say, yeah..but they were DL FAs. That's true but they didn't bring ANY new routes with them when their respective bases closed and they started commuting to NYC and ATL. With NW, there are ALSO going to be opportunities. Think of the opportunites for original DL FAs who live in the midwest and have been commuting to CVG. They are going to have even more European destinations PLUS Asia by commuting just a "stone's throw up the road" to DTW.
I'm sorry but ATL and NYC FAs have been spoiled. Now it's time for the rest of the DL system to be energized...SFO, LAX, SEA, HNL and CVG commuters. This airline is not JUST about ATL and JFK. (are you listening Cajun??)
Supervisors are meeting flights now trying to talk you into just what you're going to do...and you're falling for it.
This just in:

-Important Notice-
Concerning Delta/Northwest Seniority





Delta Flying Partners:



Delta's anti-union advisors unfortunately have dispatched Delta supervisors to meet flights and talk to us about possible seniority integration issues. Some are apparently making false statements like the following. . .



FALSE STATEMENT #1. Delta will work to staple Northwest flight attendants to the bottom of the Delta seniority list.



FALSE STATEMENT #2. Delta flight attendants may somehow obtain a better outcome in a seniority arbitration by not joining AFA.



FALSE STATEMENT #3. Finally, as a scare tactic, they are falsely stating that the Northwest flight attendants are more senior than us at Delta.



Each of the above statements is false.



IN FACT, we believe Delta supervisors are putting Delta flight attendants at jeopardy for an even worse seniority outcome by advocating an arbitration hearing over AFA's date-of-hire policy.



IN FACT, in an arbitration, without the protection of the AFA seniority merger policy, a neutral 'outsider' (Not Delta) will determine what they think is “fair and equitable.â€￾ AFA’s seniority policy protects our full, current seniority. Arbitration on Delta’s terms, or under the seniority law, does not.



IN FACT, the US Airways pilots lost nearly a decade of seniority to the America West pilots in just this kind of “fair and equitableâ€￾ arbitration hearing. We do not think it is worth the gamble! (Even our Delta pilots wouldn't arbitrate with the NWA pilots because of this very gamble!) Since we are more senior to the Northwest flight attendants, why should we be taking any risks?



It is very clear that Delta flight attendants' best seniority outcome is to join AFA and immediately obtain the date-of-hire protections in the AFA Constitution.



Finally, please document and email us any specific examples of these deliberate interference efforts – if you witness them taking place on-line (supervisor's name, location, what they said).



In unity,



Delta-AFA Communications Team

Luke

I understand what you are saying but I am no more falling for Delta's PR campaign than you are for AFA's. I feel quite certain that I'm able to decern truth from fiction. I cant confirm any supervisors meeting planes to converse about the AFA campaign, I havent heard that. I certainly dont think it is even possible with this new "FAIR AND EQUITABLE" law to staple NWA to the bottom, and I havent heard anyone suggesting that. As far as the seniority difference between DAL and NWA I would love for someone to come out with a factual list so we could make our decision based on facts. That would be had facts. Instead we rely on AFA and DAL to tell us what the facts are. As far as the US pilots, they lost seniority because the arbitrator said they had the most to gain, in other words if AW hadnt saved them they would have been facing liquidation. So in that particular case it was fair that they didnt go to the top of the list just becuase they had been working longer. Now NWA is certainly not in US's condition but an arbitrator would be able to at least review the size and scope of each airline. As I have already said, prove to me that DOH is fair to each airline and I will support AFA. It will take more than talking points. I am not defending Delta here or being non union. I am advocating negotiating senority based on more than just DOH.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Hi Lukeaislewalker,
You seem to be pretty bitter at this point in your career based upon your statements. .

Cajun,
Sheeple like you use the same, old tired tactics. Because I mentioned the laundry list of things that have changed over the years, does not mean I'm bitter. Just the opposite...I am showing that throughout we've endured and now I'm optimistic and hopeful that we will either now, or when NW comes over, finally have a say in our careers.
You, on the other hand, sound bitter (and yes, spoiled) to me. When I flew out of Atlanta in the late 80s, no one at 10 years held Intl. And that was during the "good ol' days". We've had FAs in my base on ready, straight reserve for 16 years!(until it changed to A days and now sometimes it goes up to 28/29 years!) If you want to get into a spitting contest on this type of thing, I can go there but I don't wish to. So to me, you have a lot of nerve calling me bitter...I'm trying to do something that I believe will better all of our futures. What are you doing?? Nothing. Just wishing a lower seniority ranking on your soon-to-be fellow Delta FAs or even worse, that the merger doesn't go through (which could be detrimental to both company's futures in the light of $118 per barrel oil). Your statements come off as worse than bitter..they seem self-serving. And you have the audacity to blame the AFA for things that were so out of their control..like the terrorists on the morning of 9/11 and the anti-labor Bush Administration's policies. But I don't think you really care about that because your little world SEEMS TO BE all about you, and what you can hold. You wouldn't know the meaning of the word "unity" if it hit you in the face...because it takes more than ONE person to be unified.
Good luck.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Luke

I understand what you are saying but I am no more falling for Delta's PR campaign than you are for AFA's. I feel quite certain that I'm able to decern truth from fiction. I cant confirm any supervisors meeting planes to converse about the AFA campaign, I havent heard that. I certainly dont think it is even possible with this new "FAIR AND EQUITABLE" law to staple NWA to the bottom, and I havent heard anyone suggesting that. As far as the seniority difference between DAL and NWA I would love for someone to come out with a factual list so we could make our decision based on facts. That would be had facts. Instead we rely on AFA and DAL to tell us what the facts are. As far as the US pilots, they lost seniority because the arbitrator said they had the most to gain, in other words if AW hadnt saved them they would have been facing liquidation. So in that particular case it was fair that they didnt go to the top of the list just becuase they had been working longer. Now NWA is certainly not in US's condition but an arbitrator would be able to at least review the size and scope of each airline. As I have already said, prove to me that DOH is fair to each airline and I will support AFA. It will take more than talking points. I am not defending Delta here or being non union. I am advocating negotiating senority based on more than just DOH.

Cooper, I can appreciate what you are saying. And I would like to also say "thank you" for remaining pretty level headed in this debate--I know it can be hard!
Anyway, ck the list below, I also pasted the general list on the other thread. Others such as Yankeestu and Danny have the detailed lists. I don't know if they can be released for privacy reasons but just based on the 'general' one below, my own relative seniority is better at NW than DL. You may want to do the math based on your seniority and see where you come out on NWA list. I am in the top 16% on their list and at 25% on our list.
Again, I appreciate your earnestness in trying to get the answers that are right for you.

NWA SENIORITY - as of February 2008

NWA F/As Dates of Hire
Seniority # (year thru Year)

0001 - 1000 Date of hire 1951 - 1978
1001 - 2000 Date of hire 1978 - 1985
2001 - 3000 Date of hire 1985 - 1988
3001 - 4000 Date of hire 1988 - 1990 (March 90)
4001 - 5000 Date of hire 1990 - 1992 (June 92)
5001 - 6000 Date of hire 1992 - 1997
6001 - 7000 Date of hire 1997 - 2001 (June '01)
7001 - 8000 Date of hire 2001 - Present (NWA has hired nearly 1,000 FAs since 2007)