AFA Files Suit In Federal Court

[jimntx]

Great post, Wings. But let me ask you this: If the seniority issue goes to an arbitrator, does his/her ruling supercede AFA's DOH by-laws? Or if AFA is voted in, is his/her decision stuck down and seniority then becomes DOH?

Under the RLA, binding arbitration is the last word. Binding means binding. (Unless of course you are US Airways pilots who demand binding arbitration and then decide you have the right to ignore it when you don't get the decision you want. )

 

[cooper43]

Dignity, I understand where you're coming from and they are two separate issues. But...in this situation, they are not mutually exclusive. You have to get into the mindset of how some DL f/a's think. And this is just my opinion based on working here, but many DL f/a's have a strong"what's-in-it-for-me?" attitude. I think that's been evidenced by many of the postings here (DLSam, Cooper, and JimTx's friend). My personal opinion is that while Delta promotes teamwork and everybody helping each other out to get the job done, they have never promoted a sense of unity within the f/a ranks (think UNIty and UNIon). If unity is promoted by Delta, it's always the entire company against outside forces (hostile take-overs, oil speculators, etc..)

You come from a strong union background where standing together and fairness is important. Some DL f/a's also feel this way, but many do not as it has not been part of the corporate culture. Seniority being the single most important issue for f/a's, I think you could very possibly see f/a's on each side of the representation issue toss out all the other aspects of their job in order to defend and/or improve their relative seniority. I'm not saying all DL f/a's by any means and for the most part, we are a great group of people to work with, but you just have to understand some differences between the two cultures.
Again, this is just my opinion.

Hey Luke,
since you brought my name up I thought i would chime in. I am of the mindset that there is nothing wrong with getting together and talking to see if there is an common ground. Once again once both sides get together and researches all ways of combining and then if DOH is determined to be the most fair then i would be very supportive of that policy. I do not agree with AFA's policy of strict DOH without any research. Each merger is different from another (in my opinion) . It is a very personal and delicate issue. for me it matters if delta did not hire one month and nw did hire that month but if i were hired a month after someone at nw but have been holding much better than what they hold because of routes then i should not lose my standard of living when that person could not hold what i was holding at thier own airline. I know that i may not have stated that very well but maybe you can get my point. again this is all my opinion and i do not think i am a selfish person, i just do not want to be in the group who takes more of a hit than another group. it is more complicated than just DOH. Just wanted to add my two cents.

 

[Dignity]

for me it matters if delta did not hire one month and nw did hire that month but if i were hired a month after someone at nw but have been holding much better than what they hold because of routes then i should not lose my standard of living when that person could not hold what i was holding

if you were hired after someone, that makes you junior to that person and the person hired before you senior.

I recall in my third/fourth year of flying, holding a full International schedule on the 747 to Europe(generally A or B position, having the ability to work basically anywhere I wanted, and generally was in the upper deck).. after a time, those routes were moved to another base(a hub) and I lost basically all ability to hold even one International trip for a time.. then gradually was able to hold International on weekends/International Asia trips on holidays to now having the ability to hold either a full month of desirable domestic or a full month of International or a mix of both, or simpy being able to hold a convienence leave!

What I have learned in this industry, regardless of mergers, base opening..base closing..flying shifting, whatever you may hold one year may drastically change the next...it is really not very realistic to attempt to base quality of life on what someone is currently holding at this time, because that may not necessarily be the case next year, or even the next month(with or without a merger)..

this situation will work itself out eventually, but it is important that seniority is respected(as it always should be).

 

[Kev3188]

Translation: "I want to keep what I've enjoyed, even if it's at the expense of others/detrimental toward the greater good."

Guess what, Coop; you *are* selfish, but I sincerely give you credit for at least coming out and stating your motivations; that's more than a lot of people on here ever do....

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Hey Luke,
since you brought my name up I thought i would chime in. I am of the mindset that there is nothing wrong with getting together and talking to see if there is an common ground. Once again once both sides get together and researches all ways of combining and then if DOH is determined to be the most fair then i would be very supportive of that policy. I do not agree with AFA's policy of strict DOH without any research. Each merger is different from another (in my opinion) . It is a very personal and delicate issue. for me it matters if delta did not hire one month and nw did hire that month but if i were hired a month after someone at nw but have been holding much better than what they hold because of routes then i should not lose my standard of living when that person could not hold what i was holding at thier own airline. I know that i may not have stated that very well but maybe you can get my point. again this is all my opinion and i do not think i am a selfish person, i just do not want to be in the group who takes more of a hit than another group. it is more complicated than just DOH. Just wanted to add my two cents.

Hello Cooper,
Without being completely sure of your base (I think you said a few months ago, JFK) and your years of service (I believe at one time you said 10 years), I can only surmise that you have never been in a base that has shrunk, lost time, been closed, kept domestic but lost international flying, etc...
Cooper, I'm sorry. But I have to agree with Kev. If we are going to truly be ONE airline and if you respect the time served by NW f/a's and if your post quoted above is really your attitude, then yes...you do come across as selfish. Those NW f/a's you will be working with didn't ask for this merger. Mr.Anderson and Mr. Steenland and the creditors wanted this merger. It shouldn't be taken out on any f/a. Period. I think it's time for you to accept that you chose to work in a volatile industry and even with that being said.. you have a job. Today it was announced that more people lost their job last month than any other time in 34 years. Sorry to be so harsh, but this is how I feel. I can tell from your postings that you are a nice person and that's why I just want you to THINK about what you're saying.
Have a good one.

 

[Wings]

NWA FAs received a letter this evening from NWAAFA MEC President Kevin Griffin which addresses the seniority integration lawsuit recently filed by AFA and Joanne Smith's letter to FAs ....

December 5, 2008

Dear Fellow Flight Attendants,

Yesterday you received an email from Ms. Joanne Smith, using the company email system and perhaps our company mailboxes. Again we are reminded how the new Delta executives feel free to bombard us with messages to make their points, even if they are unsubstantiated or misinformed. While flight attendants are busily preparing for the holiday season, we are getting these constant and pushy directives from the new Delta executives.

Recently, an e-mail from Ms. Smith to all flight attendants and a letter from Mr. Michael Campbell to me, were sent with the intention of pushing us into a seniority list integration process that is not only premature, but also potentially damaging to the careers of flight attendants from both Northwest and Delta. We have the responsibility to ensure that all flight attendants – and there are 21,000 of us involved in this merger – have ample time to consider all aspects so that we can make informed choices about the future of our carrier and our careers.

The point is that there is a process underway, based on the flight attendants contract at Northwest and on the procedures of the Railway Labor Act, to determine if we have a single transportation system, and how we are to be integrated. The process itself requires time, including the important step of a vote on representation.

Delta executives seem eager to short-circuit this process even though they admit we will not actually be integrated – flying together on the same flights – until the end of 2010. There’s plenty of time to work through outstanding issues, and that includes seniority integration.

We intend to follow our legal, binding contract, and the letter of the law, and not let the new company and their executives push us into something that we all may come to regret. The history of airline seniority integration is replete with horror stories of how employees were hurt by a rush to merge lists. That’s why our contract offers important guidance, and protection. And that’s why all flight attendants at the new Delta need representation by a union.

Ms. Smith and Mr. Campbell, founder of the Ford & Harrison law firm and now Executive Vice President of “Human Relations†at Delta, have contracts (employment agreements) that offer them security along with good pay and benefits. Many of the flight attendants who have been working for Delta and Northwest have vested many more years to both airlines and deserve more than a promise to do right by executives who just arrived to their corporate suites.

And now they are informing us of more capacity reductions beyond the already announced reductions for this quarter. Months ago executives of both carriers made the claim of no frontline reductions “due to this merger†repeatedly to congressional leaders and the public. Then the price of oil began to rise and we saw reductions due to the “price of oil.†Now we are seeing reductions due to the “global recession.†When are the new Delta executives going to level with us?

We must protect flight attendants who have vested years in this career and this company. That’s why “Date of Hire†is the fairest and most equitable process for seniority. During the merger process, we have heard many scenarios from the Delta corporate team, including Ms. Smith’s allusion to the “possibility of date of hire.†Previously we had heard “protection of full seniority†for Delta flight attendants. Delta LODs hired over the past few years were told they would be exempt from furloughs in the event of downsizing. Recently, we saw many of the Delta flights that had LODs outsourced via code share to our European SkyTeam partners. What is the real story?

Flight attendants deserve to know all the facts as we work to integrate two proud traditions into one great global airline. The process that is underway protects our rights in the future, including our right to vote for representation. If Ms. Smith and Mr. Campbell really had the interest of the flight attendants at heart, they would write it down and make it legally binding as they do for their own contracts. That’s why representation is so important, and why we must not rush this integration process.

Most of all, we want an integration process that brings this family together. We do not want the integration process rushed by the few who may be doing so for short-term profits but instead, to be for the majority that are going to be here for decades to come. We may not have the billions to spend or the hundreds of legal counselors to counter and push this merger through, but we have the resolve to have a voice for our future.

We welcome conversation with Ms. Smith, but that ought to be a two-way street, not just another of those top-down directives through the company email system. We’re always ready to talk. We’d like to talk about moving forward with Letter 35 – often known to flight attendants as the “me too†letter in the contract. Flight attendants have been waiting for the improvements given to another union for a long time.

Enjoy the holidays with friends and families. Do not let distractions with letters by Mr. Campbell and Ms Smith ruin time with family and loved ones. A representational election will take place and we look forward to working together with our Delta counterparts as we become the premier global airline with a voice for our futures.

Together we are Better,
Kevin M. Griffin, President
Northwest Master Executive Council
Association of Flight Attendants-CWA

 

[Wings]

Great post, Wings. But let me ask you this: If the seniority issue goes to an arbitrator, does his/her ruling supercede AFA's DOH by-laws? Or if AFA is voted in, is his/her decision stuck down and seniority then becomes DOH?

AFA believes the law is on their side regarding this issue ....

The seniority integration process cannot be addressed until after the representational election has taken place.

 

[dapoes]

AFA believes the law is on their side regarding this issue ....

The seniority integration process cannot be addressed until after the representational election has taken place.

Then why hasn't the AFA called for a election? Why are they stalling the process? They have called elections with Ryanair and Lynx but seem to be stalling with the DAL/NWA groups. Why is that?

 

[Kev3188]

What's the rush?

Furthermore, what do RyanAir or Lynx have to do with what's happening at NW/DL?

 

[BABABOOY]

What's the rush?

What's wrong with sitting down and talking about it?

 

[dapoes]

What's the rush?

Furthermore, what do RyanAir or Lynx have to do with what's happening at NW/DL?

Can't answer the question Kev? Let me explain it to you like I have previously.

Actually AFA is stalling per admission: Excerpt from Salt Lake Tribune

A Salt Lake City-based flight attendant at Delta Air Lines is trying to help block the carrier from starting the process of combining the seniority lists of Delta and Northwest Airlines flight attendants until both groups can vote on union representation.

Marianne Bicksler, who lives in Park City, is the only Delta flight attendant to join a lawsuit filed Nov. 21 by the union that represents Northwest's 8,000 flight attendants.

Bicksler said she joined in order to delay the integration process until after President-elect Barack Obama takes office in January. She said the chance of getting a fair election to decide if Delta's 13,000 non-union attendants and Northwest's 8,000 unionized attendants will be represented by the Association of Flight Attendants-CWA is greater under a Democratic administration.

Current members of the governing body of the National Mediation Board, which oversees labor relations between unions and companies, were appointed by President George W. Bush.

"I hate to call it a stall tactic, but it's basically to get Delta to hold back the process.

What that means Kev is that the AFA feels confident enough with calling elections with other airlines but somehow feels nervous/uneasy about calling for a vote with the DAL/NWA FA's. They somehow think Obama will put ink to paper and live up to his promises he made to the unions (for bankrolling his election.) However now that the Dems don't have there super majority, when or if it ever gets as far as a vote, it will get squashed via filibuster courtesy of the GOP outspoken (very strong) opposition. Plus you can guarantee if it ever does pass that it will be hit with numerous legal challenges.


Also consider after the GM/UAW debacle the unions have a major PR problem on their hands and have fallen out of favor from one time dem supporters, constituents and the populous as a whole.

 

[jalbalpa]

What that means Kev is that the AFA feels confident enough with calling elections with other airlines but somehow feels nervous/uneasy about calling for a vote with the DAL/NWA FA's.

I believe AFA has made it pretty clear that once the NMB finds that Delta + NW are a single carrier it will file an election. Beings that the NMB has not done that yet, whats the need to file right away?

 

[dapoes]

NWA FAs received a letter this evening from NWAAFA MEC President Kevin Griffin which addresses the seniority integration lawsuit recently filed by AFA and Joanne Smith's letter to FAs ....

The point is that there is a process underway, based on the flight attendants contract at Northwest and on the procedures of the Railway Labor Act, to determine if we have a single transportation system, and how we are to be integrated. The process itself requires time, including the important step of a vote on representation.

Then call the vote already, why the stalling tactics?

Delta executives seem eager to short-circuit this process even though they admit we will not actually be integrated – flying together on the same flights – until the end of 2010. There’s plenty of time to work through outstanding issues, and that includes seniority integration.

Then call the vote already, why the stalling tactics?

And now they are informing us of more capacity reductions beyond the already announced reductions for this quarter. Months ago executives of both carriers made the claim of no frontline reductions “due to this merger†repeatedly to congressional leaders and the public. Then the price of oil began to rise and we saw reductions due to the “price of oil.†Now we are seeing reductions due to the “global recession.†When are the new Delta executives going to level with us?

So there is no recession? Oil didn't peak out at a all time high? Have we not read the news lately???

We must protect flight attendants who have vested years in this career and this company. That’s why “Date of Hire†is the fairest and most equitable process for seniority.

Strange, in the past AFA was against DOH, but now all of a sudden has switched positions. Go figure.

By stalling the process only puts the whells in motion to an already growing support for an independent employee union (as well as others) to backdoor AFA and lose them altogether.

 

[Dignity]

Then call the vote already, why the stalling tactics?

By stalling the process only puts the whells in motion to an already growing support for an independent employee union (as well as others) to backdoor AFA and lose them altogether.

that is just your personal opinion.

 

[Dignity]

So there is no recession? Oil didn't peak out at a all time high? Have we not read the news lately???

we have been in a recession for some time, it is just recently being labeled officially a "recession", which is probably why
you needed to merge with a cash rich company, in order to protect all our careers going forward. so could you please take that into
consideration and attempt to come across a little more delightful instead of being a "stick in the mud"(yes, I understand that is a little harsh, but feel
it must be communicated to you).

Thank you.