AFA IS A FRAUD

Given the overlap between the RLA and bankruptcy law in this case, I don't agree that the Judge overstepped his bounds as much as y'all think. If it were a black and white decision, there would be picket lines up already.

It's one thing to hold the gun to management's head, but I for one would prefer that judges take the time to review their decisions, and not rule based on deadlines set by warring factions.... This is new trail as far as case law goes, and because it certainly will be the basis for future arguments and appeals, he did the most prudent thing he could.

And, I suspect that in the end, AFA will be left with the right to strike, and should do so IMMEDIATELY once cleared to do so.

Their mistake all along has been advertising the time and place.
 
It seems that Judge Marrero has overstepped his bounds regarding this case - or am I missing something? :blink:

Yes, we've heard of it. And yes, you're missing something.

In 1932, nobody ever imagined that Congress would someday pass legislation (the US Bankruptcy Code) that actually permits employers to abrogate their contracts with labor and impose their own terms.

The Norris-LaGuardia Act was pass to prohibit judges from enjoining a lawful strike. In 1932, there were still people who didn't believe that strikes were ever lawful, and believed that judges could simply prohibit them.

You're assuming that the NWA FAs don't have to be released from mediation and suffer a 30 day cooling off period before exercising self-help.

As an aside - my personal views are that the RLA's restrictions on strikes can be ignored once the employer abrogates the contract and imposes terms. Problem is, reasonable people can disagree on that one.

And since NWA disagrees with the NWA FAs and there's no real precedent on point, the judge wants to think about it before ruling.

This ain't the People's Court - judges rarely rule from the bench on something so important; even more so when they're plowing new ground.
 
The record is clear the AFA has let down the membership AFA NWA.
I don't think the NW flight attendants feel that AFA has let us down. Those of you who are so vocal against AFA don't even have a dog in the fight. The majority of the flight attendants are NOT interested in putting NW out of business. We will get a fair deal our way sorry to disapoint those of you who are just interested in destroying the airline.
 
I don't think the NW flight attendants feel that AFA has let us down. Those of you who are so vocal against AFA don't even have a dog in the fight. The majority of the flight attendants are NOT interested in putting NW out of business. We will get a fair deal our way sorry to disapoint those of you who are just interested in destroying the airline.
So far, no let downs. I'm pretty skeptic and it's always good to look both ways.....
Point is NW management took this to a very negative course and WHOOOOOOOOOOOOOPS didn't plan out smoothly now did it?
Still got those kinks in their plans that can't seem to come out............

Calling Martha Stewart.....
 
After NW's attorney made his comment the other day in open court regarding the company's negotiating position, specifically “[t]hose cows have left the barn,â€￾ when referring to work rules, I think the judge will have an easier time understanding the FA's position laid out in their letter that there is no reasonable hope for a settlement. By now I would imagine that the judge has a firm grasp on what the company is doing by playing two competing sets of laws, with entirely differing purposes, and trying to claim they are entitled to relief regarding the BK's imposition of a contract and the protections provided in the RLA.

I can't see him delaying his decision much longer and believe he is going to free the FA's the right to self-help since they have no legal remedy other then that regarding the conditions upon which they provide their labor.
 
After NW's attorney made his comment the other day in open court regarding the company's negotiating position, specifically “[t]hose cows have left the barn,â€￾ when referring to work rules, I think the judge will have an easier time understanding the FA's position laid out in their letter that there is no reasonable hope for a settlement.
I absolutely agree!!!
 
I think had they put an intelligent work for the membership team in office(PFAA), They would have been putting the heat to NWA management a week ago plus. Of course NWA would have gone for an injunction, A union working for its membership wouldnt have waited 10 days after to put the heat on.

Ah yes like the APFA did in 2003. "Oh no you voted No and the mechanics voted yes, hurry up and vote again till you get it right."

So far the only union that has said NO, and stayed that way is AMFA. And they are still on strike. The PFAA failed to give them any support. The fact is that with unions such as the PFAA and the APFA without the single company that they are tied to there is no union, no outside support, nothing and they will usually fold when the company calls their bluff. While the APFA did a great job back in the 90s with their strike they have seen a serious decline since then.
 
Yes, we've heard of it. And yes, you're missing something.

In 1932, nobody ever imagined that Congress would someday pass legislation (the US Bankruptcy Code) that actually permits employers to abrogate their contracts with labor and impose their own terms.

Sure they did. Read the RLA.

The Norris-LaGuardia Act was pass to prohibit judges from enjoining a lawful strike. In 1932, there were still people who didn't believe that strikes were ever lawful, and believed that judges could simply prohibit them.

People could believe what they want but the law said otherwise.

You're assuming that the NWA FAs don't have to be released from mediation and suffer a 30 day cooling off period before exercising self-help.

Read the RLA. Its clear in that once pay has been changed they have engaged in self help, they are no longer subject to the cooling off peroid which requires both parties to maintain the status quo.

As an aside - my personal views are that the RLA's restrictions on strikes can be ignored once the employer abrogates the contract and imposes terms.

That view is supported by the RLA language.

Problem is, reasonable people can disagree on that one.

Reasonable people that are being unreasonable that is.

And since NWA disagrees with the NWA FAs and there's no real precedent on point, the judge wants to think about it before ruling.


Precident? Its clear, they changed the rates of pay,an act of self help and a major dispute, the FAs can engage in self help. The RLA makes no exceptions as to the means or cause of the major dispute only that both parties are able to engage in self help under the RLA if either party engages in it. Since neither party sought assistance from the NMB, cooling off peroids and other restrictions that are imposed when the parties seek the assistance of the NMB do not apply.

This ain't the People's Court - judges rarely rule from the bench on something so important; even more so when they're plowing new ground.

Whats new? Companies have gone BK before and tried to prevent strikes before and the court ruled against them. Didnt EAL try the same thing? All the Judge had to do is read the RLA.

It is the RLA that prohibits the FAs from striking. The RLA is clear in that the prohibition on striking is tied to the maintenace of the status quo. The RLA recognizes the importance of transportation to commerce but it also recognizes the rights of workers engaged in transportation to look out for their intrests. The intent of the RLA is not to deny either party of their rights but to provide a structure where agreements can be made without interuption to commerce, it does not however dictate that when an agreement can not be made the rights of workers are completely subordinate to the needs of commerce.

In the clearest of terms the RLA states that the prohibition on self help is directly tied to status quo.

By operating outside of the RLA in its objective to impose new inferior rates of pay and working conditions, in other words engage in self help, NWA cannot then use "half the law" to seek refuge from the consequences of their actions. The RLA is clear that when the company engages in self help the union can also engage in self help. There are no exceptions.

NWA can not seek to keep the protections of the RLA while engaging in an end run, via the BK code, that allows it to engage in self help while denying the workers the same option.

If allowed to do so there is no quid pro quo. This would make the RLA a punative law that strips workers of their rights to determine future wages and working conditions. This clearly is not the stated intent of the law.

Also,the BK code is there to protect companies from debt owed to creditors, in no other case have creditors had their current and future assetts confiscated by the courts for the benifit poorly managed companies. So while a judge may change contract terms he can not foce the other party to agree to those terms. The intent of BK is not to impose unconsentual contracts either.

So niether law supports what NWA is trying to do. NWA is trying to use BK to create unconsentual contracts upon its workers. The RLA and other laws recognizes the rights of workers to form unions and to collectively bargain for wages and working conditions. The Intent of the BK code is not to impinge upon those rights and the RLA clearly defends those rights. NWAs attempt to twist and manipulate these two laws, in one case use it for something it was not intended for and in the other to directly challege the terms of the law is an unreasonable, intolerable attack upon the rights of workers to engage in collective bargaining and look out for their intrests.

If NWA went to the court and demonstrated that their fuel costs have tripled over the last several years and that increase has been an "onerous" financial burden on the company and the reason why the company now stands before the Judge the Judge could rip up any agreement that NWA had with the fuel companies, perhaps he could even recommend a new price for NWA to pay for fuel but he can not force the fuel company to agree to that contract and sell NWA fuel at the company's recommended price. BK is protection from debt, it was not intended to give companies the right to confiscate into the future the property of others at terms that are made solely to the benifit of the BK entity. If that was the intent then the incentive for BK would be so great that every company in America would seek the use of BK.

I would love to read the arguements the so called legal teams for these unions have been using. BK allows companies to set aside labor contracts if the company can demonstrate that the terms are onerous and the union has not demonstarted a reasonable reason for rejecting new terms. None of these airlines, starting with USAIR could have demonstrated that labor was the cause of their financial distress compared to competitors unless the lawyers representing the unions just sat on their hands and gave no counter arguement. All the majors were around the same.How can a company argue that the terms are onerous when in fact its competitors, who have similar terms are not in BK? Sure they could have cited some of the smaller upstarts but the unions could have cited that we have had such upstarts for 20 years, their small size inevitably leads to their extinction despite their lower labor costs. SWA is really the only upstart that has persevered and they do so because of superior management practices, not inferior wages and benifits.

What really gets me is that it seems that all these airlines had to do was make a case that they needed to cut costs by some figure, that figure then automatically got thrown at labor even though we only make up 30 to 40% of the total costs. In the meantime fuel costs have risen dramatically and the fuel companies are boasting about record profits, where is it written that our wages should be reduced to allow the oil companies to make record profits? That seems to be the position taken by these BK Judges. Could it be that these same Judges stand to see their portfolios benifit from our loss? We should give the law the respect it deserves, however when the law has no respect for the people, and those we entrust use their power to enrich themselves while denying us the porotections we expect from government it deserves no respect.
 
Sure, Bob has written a great essay from the perspective of the working man, but it still doesn't change the simple fact that there are two pieces of overlapping legislation here, and it's going to take a judge to determine which takes precedence here.
 
Sure, Bob has written a great essay from the perspective of the working man, but it still doesn't change the simple fact that there are two pieces of overlapping legislation here, and it's going to take a judge to determine which takes precedence here.

So where exactly is your argument? Other than simply repeating that Title 11 and the RLA are "overlapping".

Don't misunderstand me, I agree that whatever happens a judge will be involved, I still haven't seen/read an argument that supports this current TRO beyond the judge wanting time to review the case.
 
.....I still haven't seen/read an argument that supports this current TRO beyond the judge wanting time to review the case.

Nor have I! The posts I have read from those who defend the TRO have been to give the judge the review time.

The posts against the TRO have been that there is no overlap, the NLA takes precedence, the RLA self-help is over-riding, the judge is corrupt, or whatever!

Little or no reasoning - just emotions. The courts are OK; but only if they interpret the law to suit me.
 
Nor have I! The posts I have read from those who defend the TRO have been to give the judge the review time.

The posts against the TRO have been that there is no overlap, the NLA takes precedence, the RLA self-help is over-riding, the judge is corrupt, or whatever!

Little or no reasoning - just emotions. The courts are OK; but only if they interpret the law to suit me.
No reasoning? The deck isn't stacked in managements favor every time??? What gets me is AMFA was forced (allowed) to strike, the government was told by Dougie Stealin' to let it happen, stay out. We've got our $100 million scab plan. Right behind that, our bankruptcy plan.....and after that, our management bonus plan for the great job we do gutting the airline.

Now that Scab Air is not able to blow another $100 million on scab F/A's, (or so its said by Scab Air management) It's NO! NO! NO! You AFA cuties can't strike, its illegal. Is that because CHAOS might cause Dougies' arrogant dream of breaking all the unions might backfire and land Scab Air on the Chapter 7 auction block, and himself in the Wall Street sum-zero CEO clown column? Sure looks too much like if Scab Air management can't cheat to win, then we ain't gonna play. What a GD pile of BOVINE EXCREMENT!!!! Big Money and politics are in play here, damn the RLA, Dougie and friends are above federal law. :down: :angry: :down: :angry: :down: :angry:
 
Hackman,

All of that may be true and if it is what do you suggest AFA do?

I have long favored a "Dirty War" type of campaign. Ask yourself

How many F/A's would have to call off sick on a given day or route(s) to damage NWA? This would of course require deniability on AFA's part.

Only enough to "tank" a few international flights.


What about filing Grievences over every little thing? Does that make life more difficult for NWA?

Of course.

What about my suggestion regarding hiring Private investigators to find out which NWA execs are having affairs and leak that all over the news?

I've been reading this suggestion of yours for awhile now; I wonder why no one's done it yet?

It would seem to me that there are many avenues open that are not covered by the TRO for a union to explore as long as said union is willing to be as treacherous as it's foe.

And therein lies the rub...No union (it seems) is willing to do so. :angry: