AFA Yes DOH NO!

cooper43

Senior
Mar 20, 2008
262
0
I do not understand why more DAL f/a's are not discussing the automatic DOH policy of AFA. I am a union supporter but I am concerned that DOH will not be fair to both parties. It seems like some people are trying to brush over the fact that DOH may not be the most fair way to intergrate seniorities. The pilots have a union and they didnt think it was fair. My question is : are there any other alternatives to DOH once we vote in AFA, and if not why aren't more people questioning this? We can vote in a different union or tell AFA if they want us they will have to review their DOH policy. It is not too late. I see more NWA f/a's on here trying to convince us to vote for AFA than I do DAL people. Why is that? I am wondering if they may have more to gain by DAL voting in AFA now than DAL does. Think about it and lets discuss this. Dont just brush it off as anti union talk. I am for being unionized, but once the seniority list is set there is no going back.
 
A similar discussion has been going on regarding the US/UA merger threads. According to AFA rules, DOH is the seniority list merger formula regardless of the manner the two companies are joining forces--merger, purchase, etc.

Wanting AFA representation, but not their seniority merger policy is not possible. You can't have one without the other as the old song says. Picking another union is not the solution, either. The AFA seniority merger policy is actually AFL-CIO standard policy. Unless your union is not a member of the AFL-CIO, DOH is supposed to be the standing policy.
 
A similar discussion has been going on regarding the US/UA merger threads. According to AFA rules, DOH is the seniority list merger formula regardless of the manner the two companies are joining forces--merger, purchase, etc.
Why is it fair to artificially place senior employees below junior employees with the "slot" method favored by junior DL employees? Shouldn't the senior person be above the junior ones?
 
Well, the choice is pretty simple if this is a major issue for you. If you vote for the afa, you are voting for DOH. If you do not think DOH is appropriate, do not vote.
 
I do not understand why more DAL f/a's are not discussing the automatic DOH policy of AFA. I am a union supporter but I am concerned that DOH will not be fair to both parties. It seems like some people are trying to brush over the fact that DOH may not be the most fair way to intergrate seniorities. The pilots have a union and they didnt think it was fair. My question is : are there any other alternatives to DOH once we vote in AFA, and if not why aren't more people questioning this? We can vote in a different union or tell AFA if they want us they will have to review their DOH policy. It is not too late. I see more NWA f/a's on here trying to convince us to vote for AFA than I do DAL people. Why is that? I am wondering if they may have more to gain by DAL voting in AFA now than DAL does. Think about it and lets discuss this. Dont just brush it off as anti union talk. I am for being unionized, but once the seniority list is set there is no going back.

Cooper, I understand you don't want your bidding life to change dramatically, but with all due respect you're looking at only the short term. IF..and I say IF, DL/NW MGT (cause many former NW will be here or on the board) decide to go back to their scheme from a couple years ago to outsource Int'l flying on a grand scale, it won't matter because you will be out of a job...esp. if you are 10 years or under. This may never happen but I'd rather be safe than sorry esp. with oil at $120/barrel and competition w/ foreign carrier which are gov't subsidized under the new Open Skies Agreement. Delta will use these as excuses to do the "unthinkable" "in order to survive."
If having even a bit of say in this is important to you, vote YES, if the short-sighted, self-centric is more important, then do what aislehopper says.
 
Why is it fair to artificially place senior employees below junior employees with the "slot" method favored by junior DL employees? Shouldn't the senior person be above the junior ones?

Who said anything about placing senior employees below junior employees? I was just stating the AFA policy. Which I happen to think is the correct policy! Now boarding while non-revving? Definitely first-come-first-served. (Otherwise, I would never get on the a/c. :lol: )
 
Hi all, I'm an NW f/a. Some you have concerns about wether to vote for AFA or any union for that matter. Well let me give you some suggestions. Why don't you ask your pilots why they are in a union. If its good for them, thien why wouldn't it be good for you. The next question to ask your selves is why is the management so hell bent going through all the troublel and the threats, so you don't vote for a union.

I can go on and on, however if you have any questions, please don't hesitate to ask.
 
Who said anything about placing senior employees below junior employees? I was just stating the AFA policy. Which I happen to think is the correct policy! Now boarding while non-revving? Definitely first-come-first-served. (Otherwise, I would never get on the a/c. :lol: )
I quoted the wrong person. I was hoping cooper43 whould answer why DOH is "not fair".
 
More than likely, Cooper43 is relatively junior in a DL/NW straight DOH seniority merger. In mergers like this, furloughs, years more on reserve, losing holding a decent line--all of these are possibilities if you are toward the bottom of the list.

I fully understand his/her concern. I am a junior f/a at AA. Because of the staple, I am senior to the most senior former TW f/a, but not by all that much. While I do not think the former TW f/as were treated fairly, I also know that if things had not happened the way they did, not only would I have been furloughed sooner than I was (7/2003), I would still be on furlough.

There is an old saying that all politics are personal--i.e., people vote their own self-interest first. Well, so is the merger of seniority lists. For those of us who are junior on anybody's list, we aren't all that concerned that you may or may not hold PEK after the merger, we're just hoping to keep our jobs.

The reality is that the people who trumpet that DOH is the only fair way to do mergers are usually the people who won't be affected very much by such a formula. Relative seniority is another fair method--if you were in the top 10% of either separate list, you will still be in the top 10% of the merged list. This is much harder to do, and some people on the borders--9.6% to 10.04%--may move up or down a little.
 
My personal belief is that DOH is the fair way of doing things, You never know who is buying who, Who is going out of business, But time served will always be time served.

I also believe this should go for non-revving, If you put in your time you should get FC/ Biz Elite.
 
My personal belief is that DOH is the fair way of doing things, You never know who is buying who, Who is going out of business, But time served will always be time served.

I also believe this should go for non-revving, If you put in your time you should get FC/ Biz Elite.


So you beleive that DOH is always fair no matter what. Say company A hired a lot of people when times were good say hypothetically 10 years ago and company B has been hiring a few people all along being more responsible (not the boom and bust style), people at A are more senior becuase their airline is older. A lot of employees were hired at once years ago but no hiring since. Company B would be at a disadvantage because thier f/a's were hired at a more staggared pace. So in this situation only DOH matters ? No two mergers are ever the same, you have to take each with its unique circumstances into account. That is why DOH is not always the most fair. Ask America West, they saved US air and now they face going to the bottom because of DOH. Also DAL pilots didnt think DOH was fair for them so why is it fair for the f/a's?
 
So you beleive that DOH is always fair no matter what. Say company A hired a lot of people when times were good say hypothetically 10 years ago and company B has been hiring a few people all along being more responsible (not the boom and bust style), people at A are more senior becuase their airline is older. A lot of employees were hired at once years ago but no hiring since. Company B would be at a disadvantage because thier f/a's were hired at a more staggared pace. So in this situation only DOH matters ? No two mergers are ever the same, you have to take each with its unique circumstances into account. That is why DOH is not always the most fair. Ask America West, they saved US air and now they face going to the bottom because of DOH. Also DAL pilots didnt think DOH was fair for them so why is it fair for the f/a's?

Ask your union buddies in the auto manufacturing biz who are still on midnight shift after 25 years because everytime a factory closes people bump to where they can hold, Then ask those same people what should happen when their plant closes.
As I stated before time served is time served, When we are one company it shouldn't matter where that time was served (IMHO).
 
Ask your union buddies in the auto manufacturing biz who are still on midnight shift after 25 years because everytime a factory closes people bump to where they can hold, Then ask those same people what should happen when their plant closes.
As I stated before time served is time served, When we are one company it shouldn't matter where that time was served (IMHO).


your senerio is based on closing within the same company, this is not the same situation. We (f/a's for all airlines) do not all work for the same company and it does matter what my relative seniority is pre-merger vs post-merger. If I am more adversely affected on a percentage basis than my counter part at NWA then that is not fair. DOH will affect some more than others and to be honest I do not know who will be the winner ( if anyone), however I still feel there should be a review process to figure this all out. It is a little more complicated than DOH. I for one would think we at DAL are too smart to just give away our right to inquiry, which is what excepting automatic DOH would be.
 
Ask your union buddies in the auto manufacturing biz who are still on midnight shift after 25 years because everytime a factory closes people bump to where they can hold, Then ask those same people what should happen when their plant closes.
As I stated before time served is time served, When we are one company it shouldn't matter where that time was served (IMHO).
Exactly, time served is time served.

It doesn't matter what airline you work for, you are one now!

What happened to the one big "happy" family all the DL folk were spewing?
 
Exactly, time served is time served.

It doesn't matter what airline you work for, you are one now!

What happened to the one big "happy" family all the DL folk were spewing?


That is a very simplistic answer to a very complicated issue. Once the ink is dry and all details have been worked out I as most of the good people at DAL will except it and move on. This is not a discussion of me wanting some advantage over any NWA f/a, but I disagree that time served is time served. This is two airlines merging and everyone does have a right to thier opinions. What happened to AFA giving me a seat at the table? However to vote in AFA and merging with NWA there is no seat at the table of seniority intergration.