AFA Yes DOH NO!

[BABABOOY]

A big assumption is that the only thing that is going to happen is
that F/A's will be loosing earnings potential in a strict DOH policy.
True, also add being bumped from vacation. However,
the larger impact is going to be furloughs. Who, from what airline
is going to get furloughed? This is where the NW flight attendants should have
the biggest worries. They are looking at many more A/C retirements than
Delta, thus loosing more jobs. Why should a 1-5 year Delta F/A loose their
job if NW looses more A/C ? I say keep each airline seperate until each airline
cleans house. Then let the cards fall. Again why should a New Hire at Delta
be penalized for NWs' business plan. Also, yankeestew where would you fall
in a furlough situation? Wouldn't you much rather be under the current Delta
policy of company date of hire, than the AFA's Inflight date of hire? There
are several F/A's at Delta with 10 or more years at the 1-5 year Inflight seniority date.
Just a thought.

 

[BABABOOY]

I find it very interesting that many people on here
are following the mantra that Delta is going to outsource
our international flying and that we NEED the AFA.
Correct me if I am wrong but isn't the AFA the one with
the language in their contract that ALLOWS FOR contract flying?
Doesn't the AFA ALLOW
foriegn nationals? How many routes at NW does the AFA allow
to be flown with Foriegn nationals? How many at Delta?

 

[Danny Campbell]

Bababooy:

The very executives running your airline now are the ones that proposed to outsource 75% of "ALL" of our international flying. Our contract would not allow it. Our contract has restrictive language in it that recognizes a 1952 bi-lateral agreement with Japan, where we allow foreign nationals on limited routes. Those routes are limited to a square box (East of 90E longitude and North of -10E (south) latitude). Our contract also guarantees that two positions on all of these flights (the purser and 1 additional position) are staffed by FAs on our seniority list). However, under no circumstances can foreign nationals be used on any flight outside of that small box - and none of those flights touch U.S. soil. Delta "has" used foreign nationals in the past -- and they planned on using MANY more until we (NWA) put up a good fight over the issue. Now, without a contract, these same executives that tried to replace 40% of us with low-paid foreign workers will have NOTHING to stop them from doing it to the combined carriers. And, there will be far more incentive and cost-savings to do it with the extended route system that a DL/NW merger will bring. Frankly, if you do nothing (by staying non-union), you are asking for it -- and will have nobody to blame but yourselves. Mark my words - if you fail to join AFA and we lose our contract, this "will" happen. Anderson and Steenland have planned this for a LONG TIME -- and they aren't going to let a little thing like the "Delta culture" stop them.

Secondly, your statement about a 'fence agreement' is exactly what will take place IF you join AFA. Our contract requires it. However, if you don't join AFA and we lose our "scope" language, then the two carriers will integrate operations in the exact manner you seem to oppose. In fact, it is part of the Anderson "divide and conquer" playbook to do just that. He exels at getting workers fighting against each other -- so they have no collective voice. It was the successful strategy employed at Republic/Northwest in the late 80's. So, if you are really concerned with loss of your bidding seniority or vacation, voting AFA guarantees that there WILL BE a fence agreement in place.

The bottom line here is that you are placing an AWFUL lot of trust in executives that you know little-to-nothing about. As the House Aviation Sub-committee hearings yesterday illustrated, by the sworn testimony of a few of the panelists, this merger was orchestrated MANY YEARS AGO. As far back as 2005 when Anderson left NWA. According to the testimony, our former chairman, Al Checchi began this "not-so-hostile" take over of Delta in discussions with Delta BOD members then. Everything that has taken place since then has been a well-timed, well-executed plan for NWA executives (Anderson, Steenland and others) to take over control of both carriers.

If you don't see this -- or understand the implications of what this means to the "old" Delta, I feel very sorry for you and many others that will look back and wonder what the hell happened to you and the jobs we once loved. Your Delta is now "our" executives's Delta -- and take it from us....YOU DON'T WANT TO BE WITHOUT A LEGAL CONTRACT WITH THESE GUYS. Ask any NWA FA - most will tell you the same thing.

 

[Scramble]

What is AFA's policy on vacation bidding in regard to company transfers? For furloughs, I see that AFA doesn't give a crap about transfers. At Delta, transfers get to bid vacations on their original date of hire.

 

[1Conehead]

The very executives running your airline now are the ones that proposed to outsource 75% of "ALL" of our international flying.

Danny I thought you said you would try to not make your posts so long
Very informative though, Thanks.

 

[cooper43]

Bababooy:


Secondly, your statement about a 'fence agreement' is exactly what will take place IF you join AFA. Our contract requires it. However, if you don't join AFA and we lose our "scope" language, then the two carriers will integrate operations in the exact manner you seem to oppose. In fact, it is part of the Anderson "divide and conquer" playbook to do just that. He exels at getting workers fighting against each other -- so they have no collective voice. It was the successful strategy employed at Republic/Northwest in the late 80's. So, if you are really concerned with loss of your bidding seniority or vacation, voting AFA guarantees that there WILL BE a fence agreement in place.

Danny,
It sounds as if you are saying that Anderson is playing divide and conquer and that we must give in to AFA and if we dont and things go badly it is all our fault. If he IS pitting us against one another (and I beleive you are right) why should we do all the giving. I am for the union but am passionately against DOH and until you guys at AFA realize that, nothing much will change. There have been several including myself, that have stated over and over again why DOH favors NW f/a's. If AFA were really interested in DAL voting them in, they would address this issue immediately. And I am not talking about regurgitating (SP) the same old answer "time served is time served" because it is not that simple. Why should DAL f/a's do most of the sacrificing with the merger? What is NWA f/a's going to lose versus what will they gain? DAL is almost twice as large as NW and we have considerably more desirable trips (of course that is subject to opinion and what each person likes to fly). I have heard the arguement that NW f/a's will not likely want to commute to NYC but I dont buy it. If they are middle of the pac and have been holding domestic and all of a sudden realize that if they commute and can fly 3 internatinal trips (for the same money as 5 3day domestic trips =15days) that they didnt have a chance at before, you dont think they will jump on that? I would but where would I go to at nwa to get what desirable trips? I could commute to DTW but people at my seniority at DTW cant touch international. Please try to be objective and think about it as if a 3rd party unattached would see this.

 

[BABABOOY]

Bababooy:

The very executives running your airline now are the ones that proposed to outsource 75% of "ALL" of our international flying. Our contract would not allow it. Our contract has restrictive language in it that recognizes a 1952 bi-lateral agreement with Japan, where we allow foreign nationals on limited routes. Those routes are limited to a square box (East of 90E longitude and North of -10E (south) latitude). Our contract also guarantees that two positions on all of these flights (the purser and 1 additional position) are staffed by FAs on our seniority list). However, under no circumstances can foreign nationals be used on any flight outside of that small box - and none of those flights touch U.S. soil. Delta "has" used foreign nationals in the past -- and they planned on using MANY more until we (NWA) put up a good fight over the issue. Now, without a contract, these same executives that tried to replace 40% of us with low-paid foreign workers will have NOTHING to stop them from doing it to the combined carriers. And, there will be far more incentive and cost-savings to do it with the extended route system that a DL/NW merger will bring. Frankly, if you do nothing (by staying non-union), you are asking for it -- and will have nobody to blame but yourselves. Mark my words - if you fail to join AFA and we lose our contract, this "will" happen. Anderson and Steenland have planned this for a LONG TIME -- and they aren't going to let a little thing like the "Delta culture" stop them.

Secondly, your statement about a 'fence agreement' is exactly what will take place IF you join AFA. Our contract requires it. However, if you don't join AFA and we lose our "scope" language, then the two carriers will integrate operations in the exact manner you seem to oppose. In fact, it is part of the Anderson "divide and conquer" playbook to do just that. He exels at getting workers fighting against each other -- so they have no collective voice. It was the successful strategy employed at Republic/Northwest in the late 80's. So, if you are really concerned with loss of your bidding seniority or vacation, voting AFA guarantees that there WILL BE a fence agreement in place.

I believe we are talking about two different fences. I am all for the NW Pilot fences that they had with
Republic. More like 5-10 years or MORE. Not a temporary fence until we come under one contract.


The bottom line here is that you are placing an AWFUL lot of trust in executives that you know little-to-nothing about. As the House Aviation Sub-committee hearings yesterday illustrated, by the sworn testimony of a few of the panelists, this merger was orchestrated MANY YEARS AGO. As far back as 2005 when Anderson left NWA. According to the testimony, our former chairman, Al Checchi began this "not-so-hostile" take over of Delta in discussions with Delta BOD members then. Everything that has taken place since then has been a well-timed, well-executed plan for NWA executives (Anderson, Steenland and others) to take over control of both carriers.

If you don't see this -- or understand the implications of what this means to the "old" Delta, I feel very sorry for you and many others that will look back and wonder what the hell happened to you and the jobs we once loved. Your Delta is now "our" executives's Delta -- and take it from us....YOU DON'T WANT TO BE WITHOUT A LEGAL CONTRACT WITH THESE GUYS. Ask any NWA FA - most will tell you the same thing.



Who is to say you won't look back and say "what was I thinking?". Have you ever worked for
Delta? or any non union employer? All NW F/A's know is a Union and the antaganism.
They don't know what it has been like to be treated fairly for 75+ years. That is the history I was talking about. The way the company has treated F/A's. With the AFA there will be no grey.
Yes many of us laugh about the Delta grey however it goes both ways as far as re-route and scheduling.
With the Union. It will be black and white. There will be no Deviation from DH. There will
be no advanced notice on A days. Two hour short call? There will be many 2hr and 1 min calls in
the future if Delta has to play by the letter of the law. Its a double edge sword however I believe
it will cut much deaper when delta has to have it in black in white.

And as far as anyone telling us "Anderson WILL do this, or that" sorry Unless they are sleeping with him HOW DO THEY REALLY know?

Its really simple and we will know May 28. Who do we trust more, the "boogy man" as you portray
R. Anderson or the AFA. IF and I mean IF the answer is Richard Anderson than the AFA should really
take a long hard look in the mirror.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Who is to say you won't look back and say "what was I thinking?". Have you ever worked for
Delta? or any non union employer? All NW F/A's know is a Union and the antaganism.
They don't know what it has been like to be treated fairly for 75+ years.

Many would disagree with that statement. Ask the FAs who were wrongly accused of substituting their drug-testing sample. Ask a friend of mine who overslept her alarm on an ATL layover, was at the plane in time for departure but was intercepted by a supervisor and not allowed to go home (it was the end of a 3 day), was taken to a clinic for drug and alcohol testing (because her eyes were bloodshot--they had worked an all-niter the night before). Due to this diversion, there were no more flights home, she had to stay in a hotel. Her next trip was dropped w/out pay until her results came back. They of course came back negative and the last I talked to her, she was trying to get her pay back for the dropped trip. Those are just a couple examples. There are many more.

That is the history I was talking about. The way the company has treated F/A's. With the AFA there will be no grey.
Yes many of us laugh about the Delta grey however it goes both ways as far as re-route and scheduling.

I've never seen/heard ANYONE laugh about the "grey." It's not a laughing matter when scheduling calls you 2 hours before the end of your Adays and tells you you have to fly into your off days and when you tell them you have child care issues, they ask "are you refusing the trip?"

With the Union. It will be black and white.

Thank God. And there will also be accountability on the company's part, not just the FAs part.

There will be no Deviation from DH. There will
be no advanced notice on A days. Two hour short call? There will be many 2hr and 1 min calls in
the future if Delta has to play by the letter of the law. Its a double edge sword however I believe
it will cut much deaper when delta has to have it in black in white.

Now YOU are the one doing the fear-mongering that you so often accuse AFA of doing. And if what you say is true, then we know for sure that the relationship w/ our managers was fake to begin with. If, after we vote in AFA, they take a "hard tac" , then we will know what they were really made out of and then we will know that we did was the right thing.

And as far as anyone telling us "Anderson WILL do this, or that" sorry Unless they are sleeping with him HOW DO THEY REALLY know?

It's called placing the future wihin a framework of historical context mixed with $126b/oil, a recession and a new Open Skies agreement. Business negotiations and future hedges don't take place in the bedroom (for the most part), that's why when you do Yahoo stock searches, you pull up a stock/company's HISTORY.

 

[Cajun Flyer]

Cajun,
You lay out your case in a very thoughtful, concise manner and therefore I will be the first to say that you do make a strong point. However, it is based on the following (some known and unknown) assumptions:
1. NW FAs will either move or commute to NYC and ATL en masse.
2. There will always be openings in NYC (probable) and ATL(not as probable) to accommodate their transfers.
3. DL FAs will not leave ATL and NYC to go to SEA, SFO, PDX (soon to be NW base). Remember, there are quite a few commuters from these cities...esp SEA and PDX.
4. Many NW FAs WANT to fly DL International routes.
5. There is no dormant authority DL can revive to fly to Asia from NYC thus increasing the time. (NW used to fly JFK-NRT, I believe.)

And even with a ratio/relative seniority integration, there are still going to be FAs from NW who are going to be senior to these junior DL FAs. They may still get bumped down the list. (Think PanAm and believe me, they won't be as disadvantaged in a ranking as PA FAs were.)
And from point 3 above, think of how it will be in SEA, PDX, SFO (and even MSP--several former WAL FAs still live there from when WAL had their base), when a ratio-advantaged DL FA transfers in.

I will say that none of your points were reason for me to not vote. Besides, the arbitrator (NW FAs will not agree on a ratio that disadvantages them) will have to see your point and rule in favor based on the findings you presented. I'm not saying that wouldn't happen, but it's a gamble as there are other factors involved.

Thanks for your reply. I think we're all seeing this from different angles which is beneficial for us all.

In addressing your first point that NWA F/A's will move or won't move/commute to NYC and ATL en masse, I don't think it will take a large amount of NWA people to drastically affect the seniority of the rest of Delta F/A's in those bases. Those that know they can hold international will be the ones most likely to transfer which would move everyone else down the list. If an NWA F/A with 10 years or more knows that they can commute to NYC and hold international whereas they'd have to be at 20 years or more to hold it in DTW or MSP, the likelihood of that happening goes up in my opinion. You've opened up international flying to a large block of people that have never been able to hold it before and it could drastically change the landscape of what Delta F/A's would be able to hold going forward. We know that hundreds of Delta F/A's commute to both NYC and Atlanta to fly those trips. I think it's very likely we'd have that happen with NWA people. I checked the bid awards for May 08 today and ATL also had 10 year and 9 year F/A's holding international A & B. April 98 for TFLA and March 99 for TFLB. Those are opportunities that Delta people have waited for and I'd not like to see us go backward with regard to what we can hold.

2nd point: When those transfers do become available, obviously the most senior people will get them first which will have the quickest negative impact on the Delta people in the base and what they are able to hold. There would be an immediate impact and with straight DOH there would be little to protect Delta people from losing those routes. As Delta flies so many more routes than does NWA, I think that NWA people will be looking forward to moving in and taking the best flying especially if they've never been able to hold it at any NWA base.

3rd: I think you're right that some people from Delta will want to transfer to current NW bases, but I think too that there a lot less of those people than there were just a few years ago when it became much harder to commute. Also because there is less flying at NWA the opportunities to offset NWA transfers who will displace more junior Delta people will be small in comparison.

4th Point: I do think that NWA people will want to fly DL international. When you take into account that US based NWA F/A's fly very little international in comparison to US based Delta F/A's, I think they will be looking forward to it, especially if they've never been able to hold international. When you compare the variety of destinations that Delta flies including Europe, the Middle East, Africa, Latin and South America and compare it with their international trips, I'd want to be flying what Delta has too. The variety is so much greater.

5th Point: I'm not sure what dormant authority Delta has to fly to Asia out of NYC. We did Narita at one time out of there but I'm not sure that Delta could increase Asian routes that would increase the time there and accommodate NWA people by doing so. Currently NWA is flying only NRT to Asia out of NYC according to the route map from their website. I would think they'd be flying more if they had route authority to do so. They only fly to AMS in Europe and to Montego Bay in the Caribbean. I think they'll be happy to transfer into NYC.

I do realize that there will be NWA F/A's that will be senior to Delta F/A's when all is said and done but I'd rather leave that to an arbitrator who at least has a chance to analyze what each carrier is currently flying and make the fairest decision possible. With straight DOH there is NO possibility of that happening. I think DOH gives NWA people a distinct advantage considering they will have the opportunity to fly destinations at a much earlier seniority than they would have had they stayed NWA. That would not hold true for Delta people with respect to the NWA route structure and what opportunities currently exist there. If the arbitrator doesn't see these points (which I believe are difficult not to see) then we would, in all probability, be no worse off than straight date of hire which is what AFA bylaws dictate is right for their people. It would be difficult for NWA F/A's to negotiate otherwise as their own union bylaws already consider DOH to be the fairest integration method.

Again, it's not at all likely, but it would be better if we did like Air France - KLM and just kept it all separate. A bonus of that would be never having to fly on 40 year old DC-9s!

 

[flyaway33]

:down: Cooper, ive been reading all the responses to your thread and it does seem as if you are a broken record. We get your point and what you are trying to say but you need to be aware of facts and all that happens in a merger, not just worrying about you being stuck at the bottom. We all make up a company not just you at the bottom. We all have put in our time with the airlines and many of us have been through mergers and worked for more than one airline, suffice to say would guess youve only ever worked for one airline and are fairly junior. SHUT UP and get with the program.

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

Thanks for your reply. I think we're all seeing this from different angles which is beneficial for us all.

In addressing your first point that NWA F/A's will move or won't move/commute to NYC and ATL en masse, I don't think it will take a large amount of NWA people to drastically affect the seniority of the rest of Delta F/A's in those bases. Those that know they can hold international will be the ones most likely to transfer which would move everyone else down the list. If an NWA F/A with 10 years or more knows that they can commute to NYC and hold international whereas they'd have to be at 20 years or more to hold it in DTW or MSP, the likelihood of that happening goes up in my opinion. You've opened up international flying to a large block of people that have never been able to hold it before and it could drastically change the landscape of what Delta F/A's would be able to hold going forward. We know that hundreds of Delta F/A's commute to both NYC and Atlanta to fly those trips. I think it's very likely we'd have that happen with NWA people. I checked the bid awards for May 08 today and ATL also had 10 year and 9 year holding international A & B. April 98 for TFLA and March 99 for TFLB. Those are opportunities that Delta people have waited for and I'd not like to see us go backward with regard to what we can hold.

2nd point: When those transfers do become available, obviously the most senior people will get them first which will have the quickest negative impact on the Delta people in the base and what they are able to hold. There would be an immediate impact and with straight DOH there would be little to protect Delta people from losing those routes. As Delta flies so many more routes than does NWA, I think that NWA people will be looking forward to moving in and taking the best flying especially if they've never been able to hold it at any NWA base.

3rd: I think you're right that some people from Delta will want to transfer to current NW bases, but I think too that there a lot less of those people than there were just a few years ago when it became much harder to commute. Also because there is less flying at NWA the opportunities to offset NWA transfers who will displace more junior Delta people will be small in comparison.

4th Point: I do think that NWA people will want to fly DL international. When you take into account that US based NWA F/A's fly very little international in comparison to US based Delta F/A's, I think they will be looking forward to it, especially if they've never been able to hold international. When you compare the variety of destinations that Delta flies including Europe, the Middle East, Africa, Latin and South America and compare it with their international trips, I'd want to be flying what Delta has too. The variety is so much greater.

5th Point: I'm not sure what dormant authority Delta has to fly to Asia out of NYC. We did Narita at one time out of there but I'm not sure that Delta could increase Asian routes that would increase the time there and accommodate NWA people by doing so. Currently NWA is flying only NRT to Asia out of NYC according to the route map from their website. I would think they'd be flying more if they had route authority to do so. They only fly to AMS in Europe and to Montego Bay in the Caribbean. I think they'll be happy to transfer into NYC.

I do realize that there will be NWA F/A's that will be senior to Delta F/A's when all is said and done but I'd rather leave that to an arbitrator who at least has a chance to analyze what each carrier is currently flying and make the fairest decision possible. With straight DOH there is NO possibility of that happening. I think DOH gives NWA people a distinct advantage considering they will have the opportunity to fly destinations at a much earlier seniority than they would have had they stayed NWA. That would not hold true for Delta people with respect to the NWA route structure and what opportunities currently exist there. If the arbitrator doesn't see these points (which I believe are difficult not to see) then we would, in all probability, be no worse off than straight date of hire which is what AFA bylawas dictate is right for their people. It would be difficult for NWA F/A's to negotiate otherwise as their own union bylaws already consider DOH to be the fairest integration method.

Again, it's not at all likely, but it would be better if we did like Air France - KLM and just kept it all separate. A bonus of that would be never having to fly on 40 year old DC-9s!

Thanks again, Cajun for the well-thought-out posting. I will admit, you do make some valid points. I'm not as hardline as some may think. I like to give credit where credit is due and I can tell you did your research.
And I agree about those DC9's...been there, done that!!

 

[LukeAisleWalker]

3rd: I think you're right that some people from Delta will want to transfer to current NW bases, but I think too that there a lot less of those people than there were just a few years ago when it became much harder to commute. Also because there is less flying at NWA the opportunities to offset NWA transfers who will displace more junior Delta people will be small in comparison.

Oh, I know we were having a "bonding" moment
But I would be remiss if I didn't bring up your #3 point and that the commuting difficulty would go both ways.
Also, if a lot of DTW or MSP FAs started commuting to NYC or ATL...imagine what booking the J/S would be like!!
Shades of DFW?? That could, POSSIBLY, curtail some people...I don't know.

 

[cooper43]

Funny, I didn't mention you specifically in my last post. So that makes who paranoid?

Coop....you seem unable to find any fault on DAL's part for anything, ever.
I love my government but can see flaws for what they are.
You live in a widget infused fog.
I don't know anyone (other than you) that is for or against the union that doesn't have a certain amount of resentment towards some of our company's actions.

Haven't you ever thought "Wow, they sure could have done that differently!"......hmm?

how many times do I have to say I am pro union. I started this thread which is entitled "AFA YES DOH NO" I am for AFA on most every issue except DOH. I wish you could see that and maybe think about the implications of DOH on your future. I mean no disrespect and I was a little short in my remark to you but it is because I just want to debate the issue and you seem to think I am a spy because I have a different view.

 

[BigBangTheory]

how many times do I have to say I am pro union. I started this thread which is entitled "AFA YES DOH NO" I am for AFA on most every issue except DOH. I wish you could see that and maybe think about the implications of DOH on your future. I mean no disrespect and I was a little short in my remark to you but it is because I just want to debate the issue and you seem to think I am a spy because I have a different view.

If the AFA did not do away with DOH, would you still vote for the union?

 

[cooper43]

If the AFA did not do away with DOH, would you still vote for the union?

yes I would vote for AFA if they did away with DOH.