Allowing Bk Carriers To Destroy The Industry

Jan 7, 2004
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United, 2 other airlines cut fares


Round of reductions follows increase less than 2 weeks ago

By Mark Skertic
Tribune staff reporter
Posted March 8 2005
A little more than a week after boosting fares, airlines have launched a spring sale on thousands of domestic and international flights.

United Airlines and US Airways ]temporarily dropped prices Monday, an action other major airlines typically follow. Northwest Airlines quickly announced it would match the cuts in most markets.

Travel Web site Travelocity, which tracks fare changes, recorded more than 47,000 reductions Sunday night. The volume of price markdowns was one of the largest in recent memory, a spokeswoman said.

Less than two weeks ago, most of the nation's airlines raised prices as much as $20 per round trip, an increase they said was prompted by skyrocketing fuel prices.

The latest sale will offset that increase in many cases. For example, United has dropped the price of a round-trip ticket from Chicago to Los Angeles to $158 from $218. The cost of a round trip from Chicago to London will decrease to $420 from $488.

Each airline's sale comes with different restrictions. Generally, they require reservations be made in the next several weeks. US Airways requires reservations by Sunday for travel dates through May 19. United requires reservations by March 18 and covers trips through June 10.

Spring sales are intended to boost travel during a slow period, said United spokeswoman Robin Urbanski. Easter is in late March this year, and vacation travel typically falls in the period following Easter until the start of summer, she said.

The airlines are dropping prices at a time that many are cash starved. At nearly $54 a barrel, oil prices have been at near-record levels for weeks. The high price of fuel has offset many of the labor and other cost-savings airlines in bankruptcy, including United and US Airways, have made.

Fare sales are great news for consumers, but they don't make much sense for the industry, said Henry Harteveldt, vice president and travel specialist for Forrester Research.

"I love how two bankrupt airlines are lowering prices at the same time oil prices are surging upwards," Harteveldt said.

If they are going to achieve economic solvency, carriers should be willing to charge more and accept that planes won't carry as many people, he said.

"The airlines are just continuing to commit economic suicide," Harteveldt said. "Fare cuts are the airline's version of bulimia. Every time they take money in, they stick their finger down their throats with fare cuts."
Fares typically drop in the spring, then begin rising as summer approaches, said Simon Bramley, vice president at Travelocity. Prices stay high during most of the summer, then usually begin dropping again during the second half of August or early September, he said.

"That's the normal pattern," he said. "Whether it will hold this year is anybody's guess. There's still some opportunity for future sales before we get to the high-demand months."

This has got to end. The entire industry should be up in arms about the blood sucking parasites that laguish in BK and suck the economic viability of carriers that have operated in solvency. Staying OUT of BK should NOT be a DIS-ADVANTAGE! MAD as HELL! :angry: :angry2:
 
I agree. The nonbankrupt legacy airlines are still paying their bills (including contributions to their employee pension plans) while UA and US have failed to do so. And desperate for cash, UA and US have helped drive down fares to levels so low that all will end up in Ch 11.

They both contribute to the excess domestic capacity that is causing historic low fares.

It's long past time to throw some out of the sinking lifeboat so that some may survive.
 
North by Northwest said:
The entire industry should be up in arms about the blood sucking parasites that laguish in BK and suck the economic viability of carriers that have operated in solvency. Staying OUT of BK should NOT be a DIS-ADVANTAGE!
[post="253671"][/post]​
FWAAA said:
The nonbankrupt legacy airlines are still paying their bills (including contributions to their employee pension plans) while UA and US have failed to do so.
You both make it sound as if bankruptcy were a competitive advantage. I have to assume that you are unaware of the substantial negative repercussions to a company that result from filing Chapter 11. Bankruptcy is a competitive disadvantage, on balance.
 
So UA and US should not be allowed to change fares? Should there be a law that when an airline enters bankruptcy it must not change fares except to match the fares of airlines that are not in bankruptcy?
 
The Bulimia comparison was perfect. As soon as they get get fares raised, they cut them. Each time there is a fare increase and 1 or 2 carriers to do not follow, there is all this finger-pointing going on. Now they get a raise where everyone goes along and 2 airlines in BK scrap it. Shut them down! Just my thoughts............
 
whlinder said:
So UA and US should not be allowed to change fares?  Should there be a law that when an airline enters bankruptcy it must not change fares except to match the fares of airlines that are not in bankruptcy?
[post="253676"][/post]​

The other side of the coin is this:

Should UA, particularly, be allowed to continue to operate with no POR, no equity investment, and exclusive rights to file a POR in BK court for almost 3 years? At what point does it become apparent that Chapter 11 Reorganization will fail, and Chapter 7 becomes a must? 3 years? 5 years? 10 years? 20 years?
 
If nothing else, I hope the actions of UAL and US during their extended stints in Chapter 11 bankruptcy, will initiate the long overdue proccess of overhauling the BK system. I don't blame either company for taking full advantage of the current antiquated system, afterall it is just a business tool.

The sad part is watching the once proud airlines (UAL, US) operating in total self-preservation mode, willing to take down the entire industry in an attempt to survive, kind of like cancer.

The embarrassment and shame that goes hand-in-hand with a company operating in BK is obviously not being felt by the folks in charge of the respective companies.
 
"I have to assume that you are unaware of the substantial negative repercussions " I must assume that you Sir are unaware of the substantial negative repercussions that the employees of companies that have{thus far} stayed out of BK. Due to no fault of our own, we are fast approaching the pay scale and standard of living of those operating under protection from creditors. The idea that employees of solvent companies should some how suffer the inemptitude of amature management of bankrupt carriers is asinine. Twice to BK in under 2 years...Lolling in BK approaching 3 years (with a rolling date of eternity)for exit. Those are the issues that must be addressed NOW. I implore all employees of carriers whom have sacrificed to stay out of Bankruptcy to write to their elected officials in Washington and inform them "Enough is Enough!". Change the Bankruptcy laws NOW. Furthermore, had it been Northwest and Continental announcing price cuts at the same time the Justice Dept.'s anti-COLLUSION police would be screaming price fixing anti-trust INVESTIGATION! With all due respect, if the shoes were on the other foot, every single employee at Ual AND U would be screaming bloody murder if they saw their wages and working conditions deteriorate because of NWA and AMR spinning around in Bankruptcy. The line has to be drawn ...and fast!
 
As a Ua employee for many years I can tell you the changes have been vast. Yes Ua was once a very proud airline, not now, but we do still have a management team that is still as arogant as in the past.

Ua and U cannot afford to lower ticket prices, but they both are trying to generate cash for the near term as it has dwindled. Both companies lost over $600M combined for the month of January. With oil going to almost $55 per barrel our losses will continue for the forseeable future.

This should be a time to cut cost, get lean and mean and get this thing turned. The problem is though, if we cut seats someone else adds them and at a lower price.

It's very competetive out there right now. With high fuel cost its dangerous. There will be more bk's in the future for other airlines. U and Ua have lead the way and wrote the book on present day bk for the industry. At least, like it or not, it will help as a guideance for other airlines to follow when they file.

When and if that happens it will again create another new round of fare cuts. This industry will go through a lot of turbulance before it gets better.
 
"It's very competetive out there right now. With high fuel cost its dangerous. There will be more bk's in the future for other airlines. U and Ua have lead the way and wrote the book on present day bk for the industry. At least, like it or not, it will help as a guideance for other airlines to follow when they file. " Competition has NOTHING to do with having TWO MAJOR competitors use (indifinately) protection from creditors to stay alive. Yes, you are correct "There will be more bk's in the future for other airlines" thanks to Ual and U. Lead the way to what? Welfare wages? Follow Ual and U...you have got to be kidding. Who on God's green earth would follow this high school brand of management IN-experienced, experiment. I suggest employees of solvent carriers try to save themselves, the time for pitying our Ual/U colleagues is over. Choose to stay alive now or die with the two (Ual/U) that have been dead for over a year. No airline has EVER come out of bankrupcy and thrived. Do not use Continental as a beacon. Continental came out ONLY because it's parent company cannalbalized Eastern airlines. A luxuary neither Ual nor U have.
 
uafa21 said:
It's very competetive out there right now. With high fuel cost its dangerous. There will be more bk's in the future for other airlines. U and Ua have lead the way and wrote the book on present day bk for the industry. At least, like it or not, it will help as a guideance for other airlines to follow when they file.

When and if that happens it will again create another new round of fare cuts. This industry will go through a lot of turbulance before it gets better.
[post="253694"][/post]​

I have to disagree here... In the end, market forces will dictate what occurs. In this case, the market forces will not be airlines selling seats to passengers. The market forces will be financiers financing and investing in companies with solid business plans, and allowing those that don't to whither away.

Capacity rationalization needs to come sooner rather than later. If all the legacies go BK, the EETC market and the leasing markets will get hit too hard. Eventually, those companies which are helping to allow this to go on (like GECAS) will eventually start investing their limited resources in something other than failing airlines.
 
North by Northwest I agree with you in principal but the fact is now that Ua and U are in bk they have cut a lot debt, bond isues, pensions ( not all yet but it will be), lease costs and fleet.

All of this at the exspense of the taxpayers, employees, municipalities, airport authorities, lessors and creditors both secured and unsecured. Because of this othew airlines will have to somehow follow suit.

There are a lot of reasons for these cuts. You can blame all day on who is at fault but the fact remains that now Ua and U have cut cost and the only way for Nw, AA, cal, and dal to remain competetive is to cut cost as well. The envirnment we operate in has changed. It changed through political means, terrorist means and economic means. LLC's have changed the way they operate and they have taken a huge domestic market share. Don't think they are through.

I hate the fact that we had paycuts, and look forward to a war on pension cuts. But I will lose. Other employees are afraid of losing there job. What other airline is now hiring in mass? What happens when you quit Ua or U and start over again with another airline? The entire system is screwed up partially from ourselves, management and unions. All are to blame. No-one wants to give up senority, no company wants to give up gates, customers or market share, unions don't want to give up what power they have left and nothing gets done quickly.

I can tell you that AA and DL cannot operate long term with today's enviornment and no-one is ready to just quit.
 
Northwest Airfare Hikes Remain In Place

Tuesday March 8, 1:44 PM EST
DOW JONES NEWSWIRES

NEW YORK (Dow Jones)--The fare hikes that Northwest Airlines Corp. (NWAC) implemented late last month remain largely in place, marking a change in the general direction of airfares despite some spring sales.

On Feb. 25, the Eagan, Minn., airline hiked all fares on routes shorter than 1,000 miles by $5 each way, and by $10 each way for longer routes. Other major airlines largely matched the blanket increase.

On Tuesday, Northwest spokesman Kurt Ebenhoch said the higher fares remain in place, except for some routes where Northwest competes with low-cost carriers. Also, the airline rescinded the hike on some of its highest fares, where the fares were higher than Delta Air Lines Inc.'s (DAL) new fare cap.

The round of fare hikes was the first since Delta simplified its fare structure and slashed its highest fares in half. Last year, a number of airlines attempted to hike fares to pay for rising fuel costs. But in nearly every case, rival carriers refused to match the fare hike, and the attempts failed. Northwest had been accused of spoiling a number of attempts led by other airlines.

Meanwhile, US Airways Group Inc. (UAIRQ) and UAL Corp.'s (UALAQ) United Airlines, both of which continue to restructure under bankruptcy protection, launched spring fare sales. Online travel agent Travelocity said in a press release that the sales hit 47,000 markets, with some fares discounted by 50%.

Thank God for NWA's independant way of operating. It's evey man and women for themselves now. I will not vote for lower wages to subsidize failed companies. Nothing personal, but my wages/job, and my company's very exsistance is at stake. It's time to say goodnight Ual/ U.
 
"There are a lot of reasons for these cuts. You can blame all day on who is at fault but the fact remains that now Ua and U have cut cost and the only way for Nw, AA, cal, and dal to remain competetive is to cut cost as well. The envirnment we operate in has changed. It changed through political means, terrorist means and economic means. LLC's have changed the way they operate and they have taken a huge domestic market share. Don't think they are through.

I hate the fact that we had paycuts, and look forward to a war on pension cuts. But I will lose. Other employees are afraid of losing there job. What other airline is now hiring in mass? What happens when you quit Ua or U and start over again with another airline? The entire system is screwed up partially from ourselves, management and unions. All are to blame. No-one wants to give up senority, no company wants to give up gates, customers or market share, unions don't want to give up what power they have left and nothing gets done quickly." There most certainly IS another way. Remove Ual/ U from the equation. The "enviornment" is organic, it has always, and will always change. Do you think this is the FIRST time the industry has gone through political, terrorist, economic events. Oil embargo, TWA Lebanon Hijacking, Pan Am 103, De-regulation. It is frightening for you because it is happening to you, and that is saddening. I am sorry that this nightmare is happening to anyone in the airline industry...AGAIN. Senority issuses are the least of Ual/ U worries. Pan Am, Eastern, Braniff employees know all too well what the loss of a life time of senority is about. There is NOTHING new about what is happening to the industry. Ual/ U have simply taken advantage of America's lost respect for corporate ethics. Their preferred exit is "screw the employees" AND screw the industry before we die. At least Pan Am and the others left something for the employees. The employees of the companies (Ual/U) certainly are not to blame. However, we can not be expected to join the death spiral and do nothing to save ourselves. This has gone on far too long. Washington must be held accountable. The airline industry is an SST heading straight for the same destination as Enron, Worldcom and countless others. Solvent airlines would be as dumb as the managments of Ual/ U if they did not try to stop this disaster now. Ual/ U land the planes and leave your employees SOMETHING for their decades of hard work.
 
North by Northwest said:
"There are a lot of reasons for these cuts. You can blame all day on who is at fault but the fact remains that now Ua and U have cut cost and the only way for Nw, AA, cal, and dal to remain competetive is to cut cost as well. The envirnment we operate in has changed. It changed through political means, terrorist means and economic means. LLC's have changed the way they operate and they have taken a huge domestic market share. Don't think they are through.

I hate the fact that we had paycuts, and look forward to a war on pension cuts. But I will lose. Other employees are afraid of losing there job. What other airline is now hiring in mass? What happens when you quit Ua or U and start over again with another airline? The entire system is screwed up partially from ourselves, management and unions. All are to blame. No-one wants to give up senority, no company wants to give up gates, customers or market share, unions don't want to give up what power they have left and nothing gets done quickly." There most certainly IS another way. Remove Ual/ U from the equation. The "enviornment" is organic, it has always, and will always change. Do you think this is the FIRST time the industry has gone through political, terrorist, economic events. Oil embargo, TWA Lebanon Hijacking, Pan Am 103, De-regulation. It is frightening for you because it is happening to you, and that is saddening. I am sorry that this nightmare is happening to anyone in the airline industry...AGAIN. Senority issuses are the least of Ual/ U worries. Pan Am, Eastern, Braniff employees know all too well what the loss of a life time of senority is about. There is NOTHING new about what is happening to the industry. Ual/ U have simply taken advantage of America's lost respect for corporate ethics. Their preferred exit is "screw the employees" AND screw the industry before we die. At least Pan Am and the others left something for the employees. The employees of the companies (Ual/U) certainly are not to blame. However, we can not be expected to join the death spiral and do nothing to save ourselves. This has gone on far too long. Washington must be held accountable. The airline industry is an SST heading straight for the same destination as Enron, Worldcom and countless others. Solvent airlines would be as dumb as the managments of Ual/ U if they did not try to stop this disaster now. Ual/ U land the planes and leave your employees SOMETHING for their decades of hard work.
[post="253720"][/post]​

I agree.

Here's a contact that we should lobby:

Chief Judge Eugene R. Wedoff

Chief Judge Eugene R. Wedoff
Courtroom 744
Chambers: (312) 435-5644
Courtroom Deputy: (312) 435-5645

Chambers
Everett McKinley Dirksen United States Courthouse
219 South Dearborn Street
Chambers 748
Chicago, IL 60604

Staff Patti McCoy
Secretary Barbara Staman Wolff
Law Clerk Velda Williams
Courtroom Deputy Gordon Gouveia

Good luck to us 'all' as the court systems are not in our favor.

Take Care,
B) UT