Allowing Bk Carriers To Destroy The Industry

[North by Northwest]

Truth hurts doesn't it. It's a melt down alright... we've watched U/ Ual for the last 3 years show us what it's all about. Can't take the heat get out of the kitchen. Now I must be off...got to check out the Hub in Tokyo. But, I will be back. Make sure you leave me a post that will keep me stirred up. We have a lot of Sen. in Wash. to contact to halt this enternity in bankruptcy. :down:

 

[Bear96]

Make sure you leave me a post that will keep me stirred up.

[post="260281"][/post]​

Doesn't take much, apparently?

Are you sure you're fit to fly? I would hate to see your reaction when NRT approach slows you down for traffic or something!

 

[Busdrvr]

I think we are witnessing a meltdown right before our very eyes.

NxNW, get help! It's just a job!

[post="260279"][/post]​

And a temporary one at that....

 

[Busdrvr]

NxNW, PMS got you down?

I won't waste everyones time copying every 10K that's been published, I'll just point out some facts.

1. Yes or no, did NW uphold it's original agreement with Minny? Has NWA upheld it's agreement with the F/A's? Why did it go to court? The diff is apparently UAL had a better case for not paying debt, since the judge sided with UAL while he didn't with NWA. Is NWA attempting to go back on all your agreements (like your CONTRACTS)?

2. Yes or no, are the rates of the current loan from Minny to NWA (the one you were too "uninformed' to even know existed) below current rates NWA could get financing on the outside market?

3. Does that constitute a "subsidy"? did Minny change the terms of the loan for fear that NWA would otherwise default?

4. for the past three years, most of UAL's vendors have demanded cash. that means UAL has been paying it's post filing bills.

5. why did your pilot group agree to a freezing of the pension AND the formation of a B-fund? was it for fear that NWA wouldn't be able to meet it's obligations?

6. when UAL takes a paycut, it's undermining the industry, when NWA does, it's a "prudent business decision? When UAL cut's fares in a market, it's undermining the industry, when NWA cuts fares it's a prudent business decision?

7. NWA is getting jets from Airbus. Who else is Airbus selling jets to? FlyI? You're in great company. Are you still taking delivery from Boeing? When and what type? How many jet orders did NWA cancel in the 90s? How many of UAL's 747's are jets NWA couldn't get financing for? But then again, why ARE you taking orders for jets? Why get new AB's if the 9's are so great. After all you are parking some 9's "early" right? what interest rate is NWA's bonds going for these days? I'm thinking it's just about the same rate as at that place you got you 5th tattoo with a paycheck loan. <_<

8. So it's all the wise business decisions of a few men at the top huh? did you have idiots at the top in the 90's? What makes you think you won't have idiots at the top 5 years from now? How will they do with over 5 billion in NEGATIVE shareholder equity, and some of the highest interest rates in the industry?

9. Is there a community college you could possibly attend while flying so that you might be able to get another job when NWA collapses? I hear that AMR doesn't keep too many of the old folks around after they buy an insolvent Airline. Sit back and enjoy watching your career collapse as UAL rises. the bonus is you'll get to find comfort in knowing it's partly the fault of your "brilliant" management. THEY lobbied against UAL's loan the first time. That resulted in lower payrates at UAL, lower lease rates, and much less post BK debt. Good on ya, smart move.. . then they wisely lobbied against UAL's second try. that resulted in more pay cuts, even lower lease rates and the termination of the defined benefit plans, making your's impossible to fund while you compete. Congratuphukinglations. Brilliant move!! NWA gets to collapse while UAL prospers. What a crack management team. What great strategy. It's like good ole Poncho Villa thinking he's the man for scoring with the Yellow Rose of Texas, all the while not realizing he was losing the war.

 

[North by Northwest]

Busdrv:NWA gets to collapse while UAL prospers. What a crack management team? Man, you need help...badly. Facts are difficult for people with a detachment from reality. It's really funny how you attempt to place a broken BANKRUPT airline in a good light while painting a picture of gloom for one of the most sound (if you can't prove yourself in times like these when can you?) airlines in this country. Don't hate us cause we are superior at playing the game than Ual. That is a fact...just ask the 13,000 unsecured creditors whom have claims of $57 B I L L I O N against Ual. :down:

 

[Bigsky]

That is a fact...just ask the 13,000 unsecured creditors whom have claims of $57 B I L L I O N against Ual.

57 Billion!!!!! Ouch!!!!

 

[Busdrvr]

57 Billion!!!!!  Ouch!!!!

[post="261088"][/post]​

And somehow NxNW still thinks it's a good thing that NWA with a HUGE level of NEGATIVE equity, massive debt, and underfunded pension, can compete with UAL with virtually no debt a much more fuel efficient fleet, and all the while replace a VERY old fleet. Yeah right. Good call, what a smart management team . Tilton is an SOB. In the case of him going after employee pay, he sucks. When he's beating up our creditors, we've just got to be glad he's OUR SOB. After the lobbying certain airlines did to get UAL's loan denied, I'll actually enjoy in some reapects enjoy watching the callapse. What goes around.....

 

[Bigsky]

Without some sort of legislation from congress addressing the pensions that are underfunded by around 4 billion dollars, NWA will indeed join the ranks of UA as a carrier operating in BK. Unfortunately, BK would be the only solution to solving this problem if congress drops the ball again.

However the direction from NWA management, minus furloughing employees and putting 100 plus uncomfortable RJ's under the NWA umbrella, has been positive. They continue to aggressively defend their strategic assets like MSP, DTW, and heartland markets of America while conservatively maintaining their stronghold in Asia and returning capacity as the demand returns.

At United the plan has been to vacate several US markets with mainline flying; chased out by a hoard of LCCs who they let invade their territory and set up shop to stay. Examples would be F9 in DEN, WN across the bay in OAK, and WN to the north of IAD in BWI. So now UA brings the battle to the Pacific where NW has long been a player. Who knows how this one will turn out.

Lots of good folks at both airlines so I would hate to see either liquidate.

Good luck to all at UA and NW

bigsky

 

[Busdrvr]

BS, if there was a way to enjoy NxNW eat some well deserved unemployment line crow without touching the real class acts like yourself at NWA, then I'd be all for it!! Good luck to all of us!! As to your management, I'd disagree, but we'll see how it all plays out. As the Warthog guys used to say to the F-15 guys, (I'll paraphrase) "You may get 5 kills and think you control the skies, but if when you return to base, there is a Russian tank commander eating at your snackbar, you've lost the war". I think NWA is still revelling in a few "combat victories" with the ATSB, while the tanks are on the move.

 

[North by Northwest]

"can compete with UAL with virtually no debt a much more fuel efficient fleet," How did that happen? Did Ual pay off all it's debts? Ual WON'T have a fleet if it is REPO'ED! God knows they have stiffed enough companies. Good GOD...United can't even get out of BANKRUPTCY and you are bragging about how they are going to destroy Northwest. What diminsion are you living in? "NEGATIVE equity" THAT is called BANKRUPT.

 

[Busdrvr]

"can compete with UAL with virtually no debt a much more fuel efficient fleet," How did that happen? Did Ual pay off all it's debts? Ual WON'T have a fleet if it is REPO'ED! God knows they have stiffed enough companies. Good GOD...United can't even get out of BANKRUPTCY and you are bragging about how they are going to destroy Northwest. What diminsion are you living in? "NEGATIVE equity" THAT is called BANKRUPT.

[post="261216"][/post]​

Might I suggest you take me up on that suggestion that you find time to get an education, if for no other reason so that you can quit looking like an idiot.

1. UAL's debt: They will "discharge" most of it in BK. There are 2 kinds of debt, secured and unsecured. If your debt is secured by an asset, then yes, that person may come and get their "stuff" in BK. Funny thing though, the only fools paying retail for a 747-400 these days is NWA. So quite frankly, the secured debt is negotiated down to a fraction on the dollar. After all it's better to get 1/2 your money vs none of your money and a jet nobody else wants.
That brings us up to unsecured debt. That usually gets discharged, and the unsecured creditors get stock (equity) in the "new" UAL in consideration of the that debt.
2. UAL will leave BK when the last drop of blood is squeazed from the turnip,a dn the chances are very slim of a return trip. The money is lined up, and the last of the raping is occuring. You should be happy with that though. UAL had a plan to leave with higher costs, but your crack management team lobbied against it. Better to fight a UAL with less debt and lower cost . What idiots.
3. If negative equity = BK, then einstein, NWA would be BK. The stuff you own is worth WAY less than what you owe. NEGATIVE EQUITY! You should be familiar with it since NWA has had it for at least 10 of the last 15 years.

 

[North by Northwest]

Might I suggest you take me up on that suggestion that you find time to get an education, if for no other reason so that you can quit looking like an idiot.

1. UAL's debt: They will "discharge" most of it in BK. There are 2 kinds of debt, secured and unsecured. If your debt is secured by an asset, then yes, that person may come and get their "stuff" in BK. Funny thing though, the only fools paying retail for a 747-400 these days is NWA. So quite frankly, the secured debt is negotiated down to a fraction on the dollar. After all it's better to get 1/2 your money vs none of your money and a jet nobody else wants.
That brings us up to unsecured debt. That usually gets discharged, and the unsecured creditors get stock (equity) in the "new" UAL in consideration of the that debt.
2. UAL will leave BK when the last drop of blood is squeazed from the turnip,a dn the chances are very slim of a return trip. The money is lined up, and the last of the raping is occuring. You should be happy with that though. UAL had a plan to leave with higher costs, but your crack management team lobbied against it. Better to fight a UAL with less debt and lower cost . What idiots.
3. If negative equity = BK, then einstein, NWA would be BK. The stuff you own is worth WAY less than what you owe. NEGATIVE EQUITY! You should be familiar with it since NWA has had it for at least 10 of the last 15 years.

[post="261218"][/post]​

How pathentic. "get an education, if for no other reason so that you can quit looking like an idiot." Take some of your own advice.UAL's debt: "They will "discharge" most of it in BK. There are 2 kinds of debt, secured and unsecured. If your debt is secured by an asset, then yes, that person may come and get their "stuff" in BK" You mean THEFT don't you? Ual is a DISGRACE. Steal from the employee to buffer pigs at the trough (pilots) and pathetic amaturs trying to learn how to run an airline/not a good time for a learning curve. Ual CAN'T get out of BANKRUPTCY cause they would FACE liquidation. Action speaks louder than words. Ual isn't even on the same field as NWA, AMR, CAL, or DAL for that matter...they aren't in BANKRUPTCY facing $57 BILLION is debt and praying their hocked jets (that they couldn't afford) will not be REPO'ED!

 

[FlyUs]

Without some sort of legislation from congress addressing the pensions that are underfunded by around 4 billion dollars, NWA will indeed join the ranks of UA as a carrier operating in BK. Unfortunately, BK would be the only solution to solving this problem if congress drops the ball again.

However the direction from NWA management, minus furloughing employees and putting 100 plus uncomfortable RJ's under the NWA umbrella, has been positive. They continue to aggressively defend their strategic assets like MSP, DTW, and heartland markets of America while conservatively maintaining their stronghold in Asia and returning capacity as the demand returns.

At United the plan has been to vacate several US markets with mainline flying; chased out by a hoard of LCCs who they let invade their territory and set up shop to stay. Examples would be F9 in DEN, WN across the bay in OAK, and WN to the north of IAD in BWI. So now UA brings the battle to the Pacific where NW has long been a player. Who knows how this one will turn out.

Lots of good folks at both airlines so I would hate to see either liquidate.

Good luck to all at UA and NW

bigsky

[post="261202"][/post]​

Who has NWA "defended their strategic assets like MSP, DTW" against? Spirit..? Give me a break. It is only a matter of time before WN and B6 set up shop in NW territory.

 

[Red Tail Bear]

Who has NWA "defended their strategic assets like MSP, DTW" against? Spirit..? Give me a break. It is only a matter of time before WN and B6 set up shop in NW territory.

[post="261284"][/post]​

Maybe there's a reason why they have'nt set up shop yet. Although I beleive WN is in DTW and "to quote NH/BB's "not lighting the world on fire there. Also avoiding MSP like the Bubonic Plague. "Quote NH/BB's"

 

[Fly]

Ual isn't even on the same field as NWA, AMR, CAL, or DAL for that matter

[post="261271"][/post]​

And I'm sure 10 years ago, that's exactly what you would have said about CAL....now look at them! And once UAL recovers, someone else will be on the edge. That's just the way it works in aviation.