American Airlines Submits Application to U.S. Department of Transportation to Operate Service Betwee
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bob@las-AA
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Here are the AA filings:
https://www.regulations.gov/contentStreamer?documentId=DOT-OST-2016-0076-0002&attachmentNumber=1&disposition=attachment&contentType=pdf
https://www.regulations.gov/contentStreamer?documentId=DOT-OST-2016-0076-0005&attachmentNumber=1&disposition=attachment&contentType=pdf
https://www.regulations.gov/contentStreamer?documentId=DOT-OST-2016-0076-0011&attachmentNumber=1&disposition=attachment&contentType=pdf
AA was really nasty and pulled no punches its various filings in this case. Here is a link to the docket:
https://www.regulations.gov/#!docketBrowser;rpp=25;so=DESC;sb=postedDate;po=0;dct=N%252BFR%252BPR%252BO;D=DOT-OST-2016-0076
Delta claimed (correctly, IMO) that AA had downsized its flights to China from 777s to 787-8s, and AA claimed that it was actually an upgrade to "state of the art Dreamliners with more modern technology."
Thing is, those 787s hold just 226 seats compared to the 247 seat 777s (which will soon seat 289 once finally reconfigured). Delta wins that argument, if you ask me.
https://www.regulations.gov/contentStreamer?documentId=DOT-OST-2016-0076-0002&attachmentNumber=1&disposition=attachment&contentType=pdf
https://www.regulations.gov/contentStreamer?documentId=DOT-OST-2016-0076-0005&attachmentNumber=1&disposition=attachment&contentType=pdf
https://www.regulations.gov/contentStreamer?documentId=DOT-OST-2016-0076-0011&attachmentNumber=1&disposition=attachment&contentType=pdf
AA was really nasty and pulled no punches its various filings in this case. Here is a link to the docket:
https://www.regulations.gov/#!docketBrowser;rpp=25;so=DESC;sb=postedDate;po=0;dct=N%252BFR%252BPR%252BO;D=DOT-OST-2016-0076
Delta claimed (correctly, IMO) that AA had downsized its flights to China from 777s to 787-8s, and AA claimed that it was actually an upgrade to "state of the art Dreamliners with more modern technology."
Thing is, those 787s hold just 226 seats compared to the 247 seat 777s (which will soon seat 289 once finally reconfigured). Delta wins that argument, if you ask me.
I agree with you, but historically, the DoT has considered promised aircraft size when making awards of scarce frequencies. More than once, Delta said in its applications that it would use a 747 on a given route, the DoT mentioned that as a factor in awarding DL the frequencies, and then, predictably, the 747 was short-lived.lpbrian said:
Using the "right-sized" aircraft for a given route is logical, but to the DoT, it sounds a little like "controlling capacity in hopes of keeping fares high," and the government wants to be able to say that it fought for consumers and lower fares by awarding the routes to airlines promising to use bigger planes with more seats instead of airlines like AA that often promised large planes with fewer seats or, in the case of the 787-8, smaller planes with fewer seats.
It shouldn't be a factor, but it is.
AA broke a "size of aircraft promise" for the first time in modern history when it promised to use a 777 if it won the DL SEA HND frequencies, but when AA's LAX-HND flight debuted, AA used a smaller, lower-capacity 787-8 instead. What made that so galling was that AA had devoted entire pages in its filings promising to use a bigger plane than DL had been using, which would benefit the traveling public more. AA went on and on and on about its 237-seat 777 (which was being expanded to 260 seats) in its hopes of taking away the DL HND frequencies.
topDawg
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jcw said:
We aren't talking about Asia. We are talking about China. Judging what a carrier has done in one market when asking for flights to a completely different market is stepping into a world that I don't think anyone wants. (because basically no one would ever be able to start a new flight ever again)
And no, Delta is pretty much capacity flat on routes they have been flying. All of the US-China non-stops have always been 777s, 767s, and 330s except DTW-PVG which is 777/747 mix. (showing 747 for the winter). SEA-PEK has always been a 763. DTW-PEK has mostly been a 332 with some 777 on it. SEA-PVG is mostly 763 with some 332 on it. LAX-PVG has always been a 777. China in general is up in capacity because they just added LAX-PVG not that long ago.
Delta is very much down in its capacity to Japan which is where most of the 747s operated for both Delta and Northwest. (but again, shouldn't have anything to do with China)
American on the other hand has gone from mostly 777 to almost all 787. Isn't LAX-PVG the only 777 route left and it is off and on between the 788 I believe? I'm pretty sure DFW/ORD-PEK/PVG are all 787.
personally I think judging based on capacity is a dumb way to hand out frequencies. That is pressuring airlines to bite off more than they can chew and lose even more money than they should be. American starting the route with a 787 is the smart thing to do considering all of its troubles PEK and shouldn't be looked at negatively for trying to run a profitable airline. IMO Delta should be starting it with a 332 or a 763.
robbedagain
Veteran
AA has proposed starting LAX-PEK with a 289-seat 772 to try to win the "size matters" argument.
But lots of arguing in the filings by Delta about AA downsizing most of its China flights to 787s and lots of counter arguments by AA concerning DL's downsizing of many of its Asian flights and the downsizing of two of its awards from 747s to smaller aircraft.
But lots of arguing in the filings by Delta about AA downsizing most of its China flights to 787s and lots of counter arguments by AA concerning DL's downsizing of many of its Asian flights and the downsizing of two of its awards from 747s to smaller aircraft.
robbedagain
Veteran
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