Amfa Said..........

Red Tail Bear said:
You can't heal a cancer like this team of management. You have to cut it out, get rid of it. As long as this current collection of greeedy theives is still at the helm of NW there is no cure. You scabs are no different than this dirtbag management team. Why don't you guys fight for a worthy cause like helping to get rid of this cancer rather than contributing to it. You guys say you dislike management as much as us union guys but yet you're a part of their plan to destroy this industry and the people working in it.
[post="303989"][/post]​


Red Tail, I never said I disliked management, I said I didnt agree with some of what they have done, but I dont run the company, nor have I said I dislike you union guys, I dislike the union and some of what they stood for and alot of the language they required in their contracts. One of the big differences is I understand I am not hired to run the airline I am hired to make the planes fly safely and I dont believe in protecting the lazy and slovely and I dont believe in screwing the company I work for. Nor do I believe in working for a company I hate, I want to work for a company I can be proud of and one I am proud to help profit.
 
Opus said:
Red Tail, I never said I disliked management, I said I didnt agree with some of what they have done, but I dont run the company, nor have I said I dislike you union guys, I dislike the union and some of what they stood for and alot of the language they required in their contracts. One of the big differences is I understand I am not hired to run the airline I am hired to make the planes fly safely and I dont believe in protecting the lazy and slovely and I dont believe in screwing the company I work for. Nor do I believe in working for a company I hate, I want to work for a company I can be proud of and one I am proud to help profit.
[post="311127"][/post]​
Opus the unions do have some problems no doubt about that, and there is corruption every where! Now with that said you cannot win a battle single handedly it takes an army of like minded people. how do you propose to level the playing field when dealing with corruption and the destruction of a trade all by your self? YOU CAN'T!!!!! you sound like a person who genuinely loves aviation but yet are willing to watch this trade be sold out to the lowest bidder, I dont understand that way of thinking.
 
Opus said:
Red Tail, I never said I disliked management, I said I didnt agree with some of what they have done, but I dont run the company, nor have I said I dislike you union guys, I dislike the union and some of what they stood for and alot of the language they required in their contracts.  One of the big differences is I understand I am not hired to run the airline I am hired to make the planes fly safely and I dont believe in protecting the lazy and slovely and I dont believe in screwing the company I work for.  Nor do I believe in working for a company I hate, I want to work for a company I can be proud of and one I am proud to help profit.
[post="311127"][/post]​


The odd thing is you are helping the company fight against one of the few unions who promote true democracy and professionalism for the craft. You are helping unions like the corrupt TWU, IAM etc whose officials brag about how they keep useless workers on the job.

Last year the President of the TWU, Sonny Hall, retired. In his farewell address to the members he bragged about how the TWU saved his job when in his words he "deserved" to be fired. He claimed thats when he learned what unionism was all about. THATS NOT WHAT UNIONISM IS ALL ABOUT!! Thats what corrupt union officials make it into. Protecting workers that place a burden on their coworkers destroys the fabric of unionism. Why would workers who do their jobs want to sacrifice for the LOPS that dont? True unionists want the union to get them better pay and benifits not provide cover for them to screw their coworkers. AMFA never promoted things like that but instead focused on the craft and profesionalism. Unions like the TWU fill their ranks with unsavory charecters who are felons, wife beaters, thieves and liars. People like Sonny Hall, who believes the function of a union is not to secure better pay and benifits but to protect people who should be fired. People who may have been elected at one time but the members saw through and rejected them the next election, so the TWU picks them up and places them in positions above the elected representatives of the membership.

Your efforts are not hurting those types of unions, they are helping them, and you are helping them to destroy the profession.
 
local 12 proud said:
Opus the unions do have some problems no doubt about that, and there is corruption every where! Now with that said you cannot win a battle single handedly it takes an army of like minded people. how do you propose to level the playing field when dealing with corruption and the destruction of a trade all by your self? YOU CAN'T!!!!! you sound like a person who genuinely loves aviation but yet are willing to watch this trade be sold out to the lowest bidder, I dont understand that way of thinking.
[post="311131"][/post]​


Local 12, your right I do love aviation, but I have watched for years now as unions eroded the industry for years (mostly I have seen the IAM) and I have watched guys NEVER SPEAK UP NOR SPEAK OUT when absolutely stupid work rules were put into contracts, these work rules could only be used for the purpose of costing the company money, intentionally screwing the company financially. If amfa had been an honest union, one that did not have these types of language in their contracts and had an interest in not only the members but in the welfare of the company, I would not have crossed the amfa picket line. Not one single aviation union has ever sent out a mass mailing to mechs to get things changed for the better, for example had one union reached out to ALL mechs to stop overseas out sourcing with a legislative bill, that union would have NO mechs crossing their picket line, but the unions have done nothing but allow it to happen because if you didnt belong to them you didnt exist. That is just one example of some of the issues I have. I also, like all of you HATE THESE GUYS THAT CANT SPEAK ENGLISH!!!!! they have no business on an airport other than to take a flight somewhere, they certainly should not be working on aircraft if they cant communicate!!!!!!! This has all been coming for years and like Dell Dude has said the time to do something about it was years ago, it has gone too far now. Your picket line or your strike is far too late in the game (and I am not saying that to be mean), the only hope for aviation in America is to put a stop to foreign outsourcing and then things would start to turn around, but that isnt going to happen, sadly. The American aviation industry is going the same way as the American garment workers.....remember buy the union label, well I did, but walmart won :down: and now professionals like us, are the fodder its walmart in the skies and has been NWA is just starting to catch up to the low cost carrier phenomenon :( I have seen this coming for YEARS because I have been contracting you guys have been largely insulated here at NWA, many years ago I had to ARGUE LOUDLY with an airline rep about replacing a slide which was out of date by 2 f**** years and broken, he didnt want the airline to foot the bill, well, finally I told him it either gets fixed now or I call the FAA and demand an immed. investigation and call the local news station. The 3rd party maint. comp stood behind me but the rep hated it but had to authorize it. I have gotten used to fighting to get maint. done right, but I dont have to do that here, here they just tell me ok fix it no matter what it cost. To me that is worth ALOT.
 
Bob Owens said:
The odd thing is you are helping the company fight against one of the few unions who promote true democracy and professionalism for the craft. You are helping unions like the corrupt TWU, IAM etc whose officials brag about how they keep useless workers on the job.

Last year the President of the TWU, Sonny Hall, retired. In his farewell address to the members he bragged about how the TWU saved his job when in his words he "deserved" to be fired. He claimed thats when he learned what unionism was all about. THATS NOT WHAT UNIONISM IS ALL ABOUT!! Thats what corrupt union officials make it into. Protecting workers that place a burden on their coworkers destroys the fabric of unionism. Why would workers who do their jobs want to sacrifice for the LOPS that dont? True unionists want the union to get them better pay and benefits not provide cover for them to screw their coworkers. AMFA never promoted things like that but instead focused on the craft and professionalism. Unions like the TWU fill their ranks with unsavory characters who are felons, wife beaters, thieves and liars. People like Sonny Hall, who believes the function of a union is not to secure better pay and benefits but to protect people who should be fired. People who may have been elected at one time but the members saw through and rejected them the next election, so the TWU picks them up and places them in positions above the elected representatives of the membership.

Your efforts are not hurting those types of unions, they are helping them, and you are helping them to destroy the profession.
[post="311142"][/post]​


I have no first hand experience with the TWU, but haven't heard one nice thing about them, I have worked along side IAM guys and the IAM is a piece of sh**
pathetic excuse for a union. The arrogance of the amfa union (not the members on the whole but the union itself) and some of the work rules they insisted on which were designed to simply screw the company made me have little to no faith in them. But the reason I see little difference between amfa and twu and the iam is not a darn one has reached out to all mechs union or not to help our industry, aka legislative action to stop foreign outsourcing. No like all unions you dont exist and you dont count and you dont matter if you dont belong and nothing is happening in the world unless its happening in that unions represented shop. That is why mechs were willing to cross your picket lines that is why there is little hope for what was once a great and proud profession. As I have mentioned before I am not the first aircraft mechanic/inspector in my family and I do come from a proud union family, but unions are not what they should be and that doesnt seem to be changing at all. I am sure there are going to be some card drives attempted here, but not one will be successful.
 
Opus,Oct 11 2005, 10:48 PM]
The arrogance of the amfa union (not the members on the whole but the union itself) and some of the work rules they insisted on which were designed to simply screw the company made me have little to no faith in them.

Such as?

But the reason I see little difference between amfa and twu and the iam is not a darn one has reached out to all mechs union or not to help our industry, aka legislative action to stop foreign outsourcing.

You are dead wrong there. Actually they all have. Most of the outsourcing has remained domestic. You are an example of that, and that is one of the biggest thing driving our wages down, congratulations. On the whole the balance between work insourced to this country(but outsourced from the airlines) and outsourced to otherr countries is pretty neutral.

No like all unions you dont exist and you dont count and you dont matter if you dont belong and nothing is happening in the world unless its happening in that unions represented shop. That is why mechs were willing to cross your picket lines that is why there is little hope for what was once a great and proud profession.

Dont blame the unions for your actions. You are as giulty as the IAM and TWU for the destruction of our profession.

As I have mentioned before I am not the first aircraft mechanic/inspector in my family and I do come from a proud union family, but unions are not what they should be and that doesnt seem to be changing at all.

In your case maybe you are not the man your father was. I agree that there are serious problems with many unions today, however AMFA was trying to counter the direction that these unions were taking us, and you chose to work against AMFA.

I am sure there are going to be some card drives attempted here, but not one will be successful.

Well dont forget that NWA is in BK, chances are the airline will not be successful.
 
quote=Bob Owens,Oct 11 2005, 05:41 PM]
Opus,Oct 11 2005, 10:48 PM]
The arrogance of the amfa union (not the members on the whole but the union itself) and some of the work rules they insisted on which were designed to simply screw the company made me have little to no faith in them. .



The work rule that if a managment person touched (just touched) a maintenance job it cost the company 8 hours of ot. That is lame it is not for the betterment of maintenance but for the betterment of someones pocket book not the company not quality. Senority, all promoting and making it through a layoff was all based on senoirity not better mechs stay not quality mechs stayed through a layoff no all about senority. What about one guy here at DTW was going to be laid off so he was going to boot someone else out of a job in facility maint. because he could based on senoirity even though he couldnt do the job, what about the job secuity for the guy he was going to bump?? What about that member??? .

But the reason I see little difference between amfa and twu and the iam is not a darn one has reached out to all mechs union or not to help our industry, aka legislative action to stop foreign outsourcing.

You are dead wrong there. Actually they all have. Most of the outsourcing has remained domestic. You are an example of that, and that is one of the biggest thing driving our wages down, congratulations. On the whole the balance between work insourced to this country(but outsourced from the airlines) and outsourced to otherr countries is pretty neutral.

That is NOT true, I am talking about the entire profession coming together to stop over seas outsourcing. As for domestic outsourcing that probably never would have been an issue if the airlines hadnt been paying union cleaners better than teachers and nurses earn to clean airplanes..

No like all unions you dont exist and you dont count and you dont matter if you dont belong and nothing is happening in the world unless its happening in that unions represented shop. That is why mechs were willing to cross your picket lines that is why there is little hope for what was once a great and proud profession.

Dont blame the unions for your actions. You are as giulty as the IAM and TWU for the destruction of our profession.


You should look back at what the unions have represented and the choices they have made rather than making choices for the educated professional they made choices for the pay of the uneducated simply because the were union members, the choices should have been realistic choices..

As I have mentioned before I am not the first aircraft mechanic/inspector in my family and I do come from a proud union family, but unions are not what they should be and that doesnt seem to be changing at all.

In your case maybe you are not the man your father was. I agree that there are serious problems with many unions today, however AMFA was trying to counter the direction that these unions were taking us, and you chose to work against AMFA.
My father doesnt agree with you.

I am sure there are going to be some card drives attempted here, but not one will be successful.

Well dont forget that NWA is in BK, chances are the airline will not be successful.
[post="311253"][/post]​
[/quote]
 
How does one cross a picket line when there isn't one to cross? In three months how is one supossed to know that there is a strike? Americans have very short memories, so what is the strategy to let people know that there is a strike.
 
PlayTheOdds said:
How does one cross a picket line when there isn't one to cross? In three months how is one supossed to know that there is a strike? Americans have very short memories, so what is the strategy to let people know that there is a strike.
[post="311414"][/post]​


It really doesnt matter, anytime the public hears 42000-45000 for an aircraft cleaner they shut down completely. The concept goes beyond what the public is willing to view as realistic.
 
What about realistic CEO pay? Does Dougie Steamhead deserve 3 retirement plans for running NWA into the ground? :angry:
 
Opus said:
It really doesnt matter, anytime the public hears 42000-45000 for an aircraft cleaner they shut down completely. The concept goes beyond what the public is willing to view as realistic.
[post="311504"][/post]​
That is a topped out scale where those people have been there for 20-30 years. SW pays their topped out ramp/cleaners $25/hr which equates $52,000 per year; and that does NOT include holiday pay and overtime and SW is highly profitable. How does it feel to know that as an A and P at NW you are making only 1 or 2 more dollars an hour than a Southwest ramper/cleaner?
 
Hackman said:
What about realistic CEO pay? Does Dougie Steamhead deserve 3 retirement plans for running NWA into the ground? :angry:
[post="311506"][/post]​


Not one single CEO in this country deserves the golden parachutes that they have. Heck I cant think of one that is worth the money they are paid, but the reality is the American public doesnt look at that or just doesnt hear it. They hear cleaners pay and think "d**n that is one well paid maid, no wonder the airline is in financial trouble" they dont hear the CEO's pay and think that. The average flying public can measure someone in their lives or themselves against the cleaners and their pay. Sorry that is just the truth. ;)
 
aafsc said:
That is a topped out scale where those people have been there for 20-30 years. SW pays their topped out ramp/cleaners $25/hr which equates $52,000 per year; and that does NOT include holiday pay and overtime and SW is highly profitable. How does it feel to know that as an A and P at NW you are making only 1 or 2 more dollars an hour than a Southwest ramper/cleaner?
[post="311522"][/post]​



Well, I think that is outrageous for ANY cleaner and I may only be making a bit more than them but I haven't been here 20-30 years to get to that scale either. I think that should be in house when possible but to pay them like nurses or teachers or mechanics is WRONG and the public is not going to sympathize with it.
 
Opus...do you really think that when NW and AMFA come to an agreement that you will still have a job? Why would NW want to have employees working together who hate each other? Obviously you dont understand what being a scab means so i will try and clarify it for you.

Say you are working and get skydrol in your eyes and the only person around to help you is a AMFA member who went on strike, do you think you will get any help? Do you know what its like to go to work and have people spit on you? How about the countless mysterious flat tires? Might want to get a padlock for your lunchbox as well.

When AMFA returns NW will want to have the smooth operations it once had and not be bothered with SCABS crying to their managers every day that someone was mean to him or someone wouldnt help me.

I would hate to see anyone injured on the job but you can rest assured if your a SCAB and your injured that you better hope another SCAB is around to help you or you might find yourself looking at the backs of people you tried to screw walking away.

If you dont believe these things happen just find an old Eastern scab and have them tell you what it is like and ive only included the things that wont get deleted by the mod, it gets much worse believe me.
 
chasbatl said:
Opus...do you really think that when NW and AMFA come to an agreement that you will still have a job? Why would NW want to have employees working together who hate each other? Obviously you dont understand what being a scab means so i will try and clarify it for you.

Say you are working and get skydrol in your eyes and the only person around to help you is a AMFA member who went on strike, do you think you will get any help? Do you know what its like to go to work and have people spit on you? How about the countless mysterious flat tires? Might want to get a padlock for your lunchbox as well.

When AMFA returns NW will want to have the smooth operations it once had and not be bothered with SCABS crying to their managers every day that someone was mean to him or someone wouldnt help me.

I would hate to see anyone injured on the job but you can rest assured if your a SCAB and your injured that you better hope another SCAB is around to help you or you might find yourself looking at the backs of people you tried to screw walking away.

If you dont believe these things happen just find an old Eastern scab and have them tell you what it is like and ive only included the things that wont get deleted by the mod, it gets much worse believe me.
[post="311770"][/post]​
I can't wait to read the spin that PTO & OPUSS put on this one!!