"And the Envelope Please "

[dapoes]

I would love to see the reaction on the members who voted against representation when they get their layoff notices, I dont wish bad on anyone but they dont realize what they have done.

Layoffs happen irregardless of union present or not. Since when did unions fill the world with unicorns and fluffy bunny's for all?

 

[700UW]

Apparently you dont understand what a CBA, Scope Language and protected stations mean.

If a station is protected they cant outsource it.

 

[metopower]

There has been no statement that these cities will be closed... yet... Most people are basing their assumption(s) that they will be on 2 things. First, NW wanted to shutter all but the hubs previously, and second on the fact that DL's recent history doesn't bode well for smaller line stations.

Should it come to that, under our CBA allows for the following:

*Exercise your seniority into any open position on the system.
*Exercise your seniority into any postion your senioirty in any given classification can hold (aka "bumping"). Note: you cannot bump "up" into a higher classification (FT and PT are equivalent, and Lead is higher).
*Take the layoff (5 years of recall rights)
*Take the severance and resign (in some cases, the severance can be double the normal amount allowed-up to 20 weeks)
* Retire (severance noted above can be used to "bridge" to retirement)

Sorry I don;t have a system total for the line stations, but just for fun, since GRB keeps popping up, here's the total:

FT above wing (includes supervisors, aka Red Coats): 15

Thanks Kev... Good info . You note above wing and below wing numbers. Aren't they in different unions or class? I thought that at Delta labeled gates the Delta gate agents worked the flights and at connection cities they work the flights am I wrong? thanks
PT above wing: 0

FT below wing (includes leads, aka ALA's): 14
PT below wing: 6

 

[WorldTraveler]

Based on previous history when DL has closed a domestic city, they typically offer all of the options Kev mentions that the NW CBA provided EXCEPT for bumping into a filled position; DL allows only bumping into OPEN positions - but given that they have rarely closed more than 1 or 2 stations at a time since "leadership 7.5" in the mid 1990s, I don't think they have ever had a problem accommodating people in hubs - creating a temporary overage. Also, DL has bridged people to retirement - ie if you were a couple years short of retirement, they might allow a LOA until retirement... many station closings have also come close to when system early retirement packages are offered and local mgmt has provided hints that a particular station is under consideration for closure.

But again there are no indications that any station will close... and the chances are actually alot less that they will now that DL is using the ready reserve program aggressively. Also, DL has no staffing formulae dictating a certain percentage of FT or PT personnel which allows DL to staff in ways that best suit the flight schedule. It is also possible that DL will reduce the number of FT personnel in some cities by creating overages which may push some lower seniority personnel out without closing the city to DL people - AW or BW.

Also, so far as I know there are no small stations that have both DL and DCI people in the same capacity (above or below wing) - but Kev can correct me if he knows of situations otherwise. DL and NW differed in that DL might have had customer facing airport personnel (ticket/gates) but perhaps contract or DCI personnel underwing.

Part of the benefit of the merger was that it created economies of scale in smaller stations that make the economics more favorable to keeping Delta personnel in small stations.

There is a justifiable reason to have some anxiety about how DL will handle small stations based on pre-BK history but there really hasn't been enough small station history since BK from either DL or NW to know how DL might act. Remember that most of DL's smalll stations were closed 15 years ago in what was an attempt to reduce costs to levels sustainable with WN... at that time 7.5 cents per ASM. Interestingly, DL now has the lowest cost/ASM of any US network carrier and is within about 10% of WN's CASM - the closest DL has ever been to WN's costs.

It is also noteworthy that in the most recent quarter, DL was the only US network airline that reduced the size of its regional carrier operations (ASMs produced) and grew its mainline operations - a direct byproduct of stronger but fewer hubs; with fewer hubs it is possible to carry the same number of passengers at lower costs on fewer flights. Obviously more mainline jets means more jobs for DL employees. Given that DL is still aggressively reduciing its regional fleet for several more quarters, the trend will likely continue. In addtion, DL is adding seats to all domestic mainline fleet types which drives down costs and increases efficienies. Even with the CO/UA merger, DL will still have the largest number of small stations in the US industry and the strength of the midwest network - rooted at DTW and MSP will only be strengthened as CLE joins PIT, CVG, STL and others as closed midwest hubs and DEN is a weaker connecting hub than it was 5 years ago. DL now controls more connecting traffic to/from small and medium size cities in the east and midwest than any airline has ever controlled. Further, history has shown that you cannot compete effectively against WN or other low fare carriers using high cost RJs; as WN expands, it makes it all the more important for DL to compete using mainline jets, not the RJs with which network airlines have tried to compete - and done so with significant losses. Finally, DL is a far larger international carrier which makes connecting small and medium sized cities to a global network far more valuable.

Summary is that there is a whole lot that has changed economically in the airline industry and DL is better prepared to compete in small cities than DL, NW, or any other airline ever has. Assuming that the actions DL took based on the economics that existed previously are probably premature.

 

[metopower]

Kev...thanks for the answers....You mention above wing and below wing.... aren't they in different unions and or class ? I thought that at mainline stations that above wing was Delta and below wing was connection carrier . Would this be the case at say a station like grb or grr ? Thanks

 

[Kev3188]

You're welcome.

Same union, different contracts. In the line stations, M/L employees handle all operations. Up until this summer, there were 5 stations (MSN, GRR, FNT, MKE and MDW) where NW worked the PMNW (airlink and M/L) flights and Regional elite work the PMDL flights (DCI and M/L). That's all changed over to M/L...

In MSP and DTW, Regional elite still handles most of the DCI work (Compass is handled by M/L, though). Not sure enough about the latest changes in MEM to comment with any certainty, but I think it's the same as the other 2 hubs.

 

[Bob Owens]

Layoffs happen irregardless of union present or not. Since when did unions fill the world with unicorns and fluffy bunny's for all?

"irregardless"

Is that a word?

 

[metopower]

You're welcome.

Same union, different contracts. In the line stations, M/L employees handle all operations. Up until this summer, there were 5 stations (MSN, GRR, FNT, MKE and MDW) where NW worked the PMNW (airlink and M/L) flights and Regional elite work the PMDL flights (DCI and M/L). That's all changed over to M/L...

In MSP and DTW, Regional elite still handles most of the DCI work (Compass is handled by M/L, though). Not sure enough about the latest changes in MEM to comment with any certainty, but I think it's the same as the other 2 hubs.

Kev...does it seem that Dal is moving twards Mainline employees working the public contact positions and contract working the non public contact positions ?

 

[WorldTraveler]

To add, DL took over public contact customer service functions from ASA in ATL in the recent past.
DL has always had more contract below wing operations than above wing but they have not closed any below wing only operations than I know of in years.

Keep in mind that DL considers above wing and below wing airport employees as the same class/craft (including reservations) and thus they permit employees to move back and forth between the areas as long as they demonstrate the ability to work in each area. If the AW and res employees reject representation by the IAM and all of the current votes stand, then presumably DL would apply its historic rules regarding movement between "res," "upstairs," and "downstairs" to the PMNW group.

 

[Kev3188]

Kev...does it seem that Dal is moving twards Mainline employees working the public contact positions and contract working the non public contact positions ?

No, to be fair, they have made moves towards bringing back some ramps inhouse. However, in my mind that has only come about as a result of the merger (all cities reopened to the PMDL group are stations already staffed by PMNW, for example), and the amount of work brought back in isn't yet enough to offset the memory of their past practices. Furthermore, there are still some very large (in terms of flight activity) cities that DL has come right out and said will remain outsourced. CLT and RDU are 2 that jump to mind.

To add, DL took over public contact customer service functions from ASA in ATL in the recent past.
DL has always had more contract below wing operations than above wing but they have not closed any below wing only operations than I know of in years.

That depends on one's definition of "years." I know at least one that was closed w/in the last few years. I agree that bringing EV activity in ATL inhouse (as well as OO and OH work in SLC and CVG respectively) are good moves, but they're just a start. If DL is as serious as they claim to be, then I'd like to see the same thing(s) happen in MSP, DTW, and MEM. I'd also like to see places like LGA do the same; currently regular flights are handled by M/L, but Shuttle flights are not.

Keep in mind that DL considers above wing and below wing airport employees as the same class/craft (including reservations) and thus they permit employees to move back and forth between the areas as long as they demonstrate the ability to work in each area. If the AW and res employees reject representation by the IAM and all of the current votes stand, then presumably DL would apply its historic rules regarding movement between "res," "upstairs," and "downstairs" to the PMNW group.

That's all well and good, but doesn't address the fact that while DL has in general been very good at maintaining AW workforces, they have not when it coms to the ramp.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Kev,
What is that city that DL closed the ramp to ML personnel but not passenger service?

I would agree that DL has been motivated by the merger to reopen some stations.

I would also agree that RDU esp. is a fairly significant sized city for DL... any reason why they say it will remain contract?

 

[P. REZ]

Based on previous history when DL has closed a domestic city, they typically offer all of the options Kev mentions that the NW CBA provided EXCEPT for bumping into a filled position; DL allows only bumping into OPEN positions - but given that they have rarely closed more than 1 or 2 stations at a time since "leadership 7.5" in the mid 1990s, I don't think they have ever had a problem accommodating people in hubs - creating a temporary overage. Also, DL has bridged people to retirement - ie if you were a couple years short of retirement, they might allow a LOA until retirement... many station closings have also come close to when system early retirement packages are offered and local mgmt has provided hints that a particular station is under consideration for closure.

But again there are no indications that any station will close... and the chances are actually alot less that they will now that DL is using the ready reserve program aggressively. Also, DL has no staffing formulae dictating a certain percentage of FT or PT personnel which allows DL to staff in ways that best suit the flight schedule. It is also possible that DL will reduce the number of FT personnel in some cities by creating overages which may push some lower seniority personnel out without closing the city to DL people - AW or BW.

Also, so far as I know there are no small stations that have both DL and DCI people in the same capacity (above or below wing) - but Kev can correct me if he knows of situations otherwise. DL and NW differed in that DL might have had customer facing airport personnel (ticket/gates) but perhaps contract or DCI personnel underwing.

Part of the benefit of the merger was that it created economies of scale in smaller stations that make the economics more favorable to keeping Delta personnel in small stations.

There is a justifiable reason to have some anxiety about how DL will handle small stations based on pre-BK history but there really hasn't been enough small station history since BK from either DL or NW to know how DL might act. Remember that most of DL's smalll stations were closed 15 years ago in what was an attempt to reduce costs to levels sustainable with WN... at that time 7.5 cents per ASM. Interestingly, DL now has the lowest cost/ASM of any US network carrier and is within about 10% of WN's CASM - the closest DL has ever been to WN's costs.

It is also noteworthy that in the most recent quarter, DL was the only US network airline that reduced the size of its regional carrier operations (ASMs produced) and grew its mainline operations - a direct byproduct of stronger but fewer hubs; with fewer hubs it is possible to carry the same number of passengers at lower costs on fewer flights. Obviously more mainline jets means more jobs for DL employees. Given that DL is still aggressively reduciing its regional fleet for several more quarters, the trend will likely continue. In addtion, DL is adding seats to all domestic mainline fleet types which drives down costs and increases efficienies. Even with the CO/UA merger, DL will still have the largest number of small stations in the US industry and the strength of the midwest network - rooted at DTW and MSP will only be strengthened as CLE joins PIT, CVG, STL and others as closed midwest hubs and DEN is a weaker connecting hub than it was 5 years ago. DL now controls more connecting traffic to/from small and medium size cities in the east and midwest than any airline has ever controlled. Further, history has shown that you cannot compete effectively against WN or other low fare carriers using high cost RJs; as WN expands, it makes it all the more important for DL to compete using mainline jets, not the RJs with which network airlines have tried to compete - and done so with significant losses. Finally, DL is a far larger international carrier which makes connecting small and medium sized cities to a global network far more valuable.

Summary is that there is a whole lot that has changed economically in the airline industry and DL is better prepared to compete in small cities than DL, NW, or any other airline ever has. Assuming that the actions DL took based on the economics that existed previously are probably premature.

Let me run this possibility by you. Maybe, just maybe Delta brought back employees in places like PHX to stack the vote. You know that Fleet was outsourced in PHX until recently and all indications would be that PHX will be outsourced again. Union busting 101.

 

[Kev3188]

It is a very real possibility that in the near future we will see many line stations being closed. The memo will start with something like "due to unforeseen economic circumstances."

 

[WorldTraveler]

It is a very real possibility that in the near future we will see many line stations being closed. The memo will start with something like "due to unforeseen economic circumstances."

Kevin,
let me share a few data points that may show you that DL does things differently than the rest of the industry.

Based on the schedule that was loaded this weekend, DL will overtake CO and UA as the world's largest airline by next summer. What DL does after the summer remains to be seen but the fact is that DL is growing its combined operation by 3.5% next summer.
In contrast - and this is important - UA next summer will be smaller than UA this past summer by several percentage points. CO will grow some (after all, it is a lower cost producer so it makes sense to shift flying to CO) but the combined CO/UA of next summer WILL BE SMALLER than CO and UA were combined this summer.

Looking at details, DTW has seen significant growth from DL.... the DL Asia operation at DTW is now larger than AA and UA at ORD COMBINED.

Specific to the 744s, a unique NW fleet that is unchanged since the merger, DL is using it to generate about 10% more ASMs than those planes were generating in the last year NW operated them. Conversely, the 330s will generate more capacity from ATL than any other US gateway, also confirming DL's statement that it would shift 330 flying to ATL. Yet, the 764 (which by next summer will have full lie flat seats) will be used more at JFK than in ATL.

Picking, say, a random midwest city that is "somewhere in between" the DL presence there is larger than the DL and NW were prior to the merger... and that city, along w/ most of the midwest, was dominated by NW.
Of course the significance is that each of those line stations are now part of a much stronger global network.... DL has built its network around hundreds of medium and small cities that feed its hubs in addition to having a presence in the major cities of the US. In contrast, other major network airlines are much smaller than DL in many medium and small cities, leaving DL as the largest airline in dozens of small and medium sized cities, even ones where DL or NW alone was not the largest carrier.
When you look at statistics like this and also realize that DL generated one of the highest profit margins among the network carriers, DL has delivered on its promise that it would combine DL and NW to create a larger COMBINED airline.

In many cases, DL has used the NW assets (planes and hubs) to generate more flying than could have been possible by NW alone. It is noteworthy that based on current schedules, DL's ATL international operation will be slightly smaller in 2011 than it was in 2010 as DL is shifting int'l capacity to other hubs. Looking at the statistics from CO and UA already, that does not appear to be the case.

The key, as I have pointed out, is that DL is using the assets from the combined airline to generate the best financial results for the system as a whole. And DL is growing the combined airline to key its costs down and to continue to generate new revenue streams, in the very same way that CO did after its BKs in the 1990s and using the same strategy that WN has used for 3 decades.

In contrast, the combined UA/CO is smaller than the sum of the parts and United-Continental Holdings is already playing each side against each other. Since DL and NW had almost identical labor costs going into the merger, there was no benefit from playing one "side" against the other.

DL has to deliver for the long term but based on everything that can be seen now, DL has created a new airline that is stronger than the sum of its parts and that benefits everyone at DL, even if that is not the norm for how things are done elsewhere in the industry or the way they were done at DL or NW individually prior to the merger.

 

[P. REZ]

Kevin,
let me share a few data points that may show you that DL does things differently than the rest of the industry.

Based on the schedule that was loaded this weekend, DL will overtake CO and UA as the world's largest airline by next summer. What DL does after the summer remains to be seen but the fact is that DL is growing its combined operation by 3.5% next summer.
In contrast - and this is important - UA next summer will be smaller than UA this past summer by several percentage points. CO will grow some (after all, it is a lower cost producer so it makes sense to shift flying to CO) but the combined CO/UA of next summer WILL BE SMALLER than CO and UA were combined this summer.

Looking at details, DTW has seen significant growth from DL.... the DL Asia operation at DTW is now larger than AA and UA at ORD COMBINED.

Specific to the 744s, a unique NW fleet that is unchanged since the merger, DL is using it to generate about 10% more ASMs than those planes were generating in the last year NW operated them. Conversely, the 330s will generate more capacity from ATL than any other US gateway, also confirming DL's statement that it would shift 330 flying to ATL. Yet, the 764 (which by next summer will have full lie flat seats) will be used more at JFK than in ATL.

Picking, say, a random midwest city that is "somewhere in between" the DL presence there is larger than the DL and NW were prior to the merger... and that city, along w/ most of the midwest, was dominated by NW.
Of course the significance is that each of those line stations are now part of a much stronger global network.... DL has built its network around hundreds of medium and small cities that feed its hubs in addition to having a presence in the major cities of the US. In contrast, other major network airlines are much smaller than DL in many medium and small cities, leaving DL as the largest airline in dozens of small and medium sized cities, even ones where DL or NW alone was not the largest carrier.
When you look at statistics like this and also realize that DL generated one of the highest profit margins among the network carriers, DL has delivered on its promise that it would combine DL and NW to create a larger COMBINED airline.

In many cases, DL has used the NW assets (planes and hubs) to generate more flying than could have been possible by NW alone. It is noteworthy that based on current schedules, DL's ATL international operation will be slightly smaller in 2011 than it was in 2010 as DL is shifting int'l capacity to other hubs. Looking at the statistics from CO and UA already, that does not appear to be the case.

The key, as I have pointed out, is that DL is using the assets from the combined airline to generate the best financial results for the system as a whole. And DL is growing the combined airline to key its costs down and to continue to generate new revenue streams, in the very same way that CO did after its BKs in the 1990s and using the same strategy that WN has used for 3 decades.

In contrast, the combined UA/CO is smaller than the sum of the parts and United-Continental Holdings is already playing each side against each other. Since DL and NW had almost identical labor costs going into the merger, there was no benefit from playing one "side" against the other.

DL has to deliver for the long term but based on everything that can be seen now, DL has created a new airline that is stronger than the sum of its parts and that benefits everyone at DL, even if that is not the norm for how things are done elsewhere in the industry or the way they were done at DL or NW individually prior to the merger.

So, you are saying that DL won't close any stations because they are different nor did they hire in cities like PHX to stack the vote?