April/May 2013 Pilot Discussion

[cleardirect]

The only party in Judge Silver's court who can legally present a proposed list is USAPA. It is the union's prerogative according to the RLA, and no one else's. And, it sounds like the judge knows it. But, she is attempting to get USAPA on record as "considering" the Nicolau list. That's the word she used: "consider."

My conjecture....
Court: I see that USAPA has presented the court with a proposed list which is essentially Date-of-Hire with conditions, restrictions and some allowance for length of service. Did you consider the Nicolau list?
USAPA: Yes, your honor. We considered the Nicolau list very carefully, but consider our proposal to best represent the interests of all US Airways pilots.
Court: USAPA complied with the orders of this court to date and the court is satisfied with the proposal. Case dismissed.

(B) oh OK!

 

[Crzipilot]

As times have gone, I have learned one thing. Anything 'ole Chip proclaims, you can pretty much bet against it and make a boat load of money..........Sorry PHX guys that he has come to your side...

 

[PullUp]

You know, a three way might work. The USAPA negotiating committee has 50% west members, which is more than fair representation considering they are 1/3 of the membership. Bring in the two LCC lists and integrate with AA.
This way the west is represented through the proper channel, USAPA - the duly elected and federally-sanctioned bargaining agent for LCC pilots.
Cheers.

 

[PullUp]

As times have gone, I have learned one thing. Anything 'ole Chip proclaims, you can pretty much bet against it and make a boat load of money..........Sorry PHX guys that he has come to your side...

Chip represents anything the company wants him to represent.

 

[PullUp]

Funny. That is what we all said 8 years ago. Once the arbitrator rules this will be all over and nothing more to discuss.

Forgive me if I find your statement laughable. Unless you are willing to concede that arbitration does complete the process.

apples and oranges. been discussed ad nauseum.

 

[PullUp]

Specifically what part do you think I am wrong on?

All of it. Everything. The whole enchalada. Totality.
But you do keep the board count up.

 

[nevergiveup]

1. To Swan....please see if you can get ustupid to go try and force a DOH list with the company right now....your about to be replaced lame duck organization will get laughed out of the room and put in the corner for good.

2. You east guys best listen to Munn this time. I don't care how wrong he has been in the past, he gets it. we end up in a three way and you will be left wondering how the he!! The West improved itself from the Nic.

3. The Nic is to this date the only accepted system seniority list covering all LCC pilots.

4. Have a nice day!

Hypoxia!

 

[Barrister]

Specifically what part do you think I am wrong on?

That usapa will no longer be the bargaining agent?

That usapa's assertion that the new union gets to decide everything and disregard everything the old union did?

That east pilots will soon be a subset of APA?

What in my statement do you think is wrong?

Be specific.

Well ole buddy been gone for a while and one thing is "clear".......you have not learned one damn thing in all this time !!!!
Did you ever buy that rocker??. Don't bother now. This will end soon. An old wise buddy of mine once said "nothing is as bad or as good as it initially seems. Hope you grow up some day and figure out what that means.

By the way....where the heck is Jim...I have lost sleep wondering what his opinion is about all of this. And if anyone knows the whereabouts of Res please tell him this too shall pass.

Barrister
NICDOA

 

[EastUS1]

2. You east guys best listen to Munn this time. I don't care how wrong he has been in the past, ....

Any supposed "logic" in that escapes me entirely.

Per your: " we end up in a three way and you will be left wondering how the he!! The West improved itself from the Nic."...? Sigh!...Even at this point in time...You're still trying to sell us the nic?....Seriously? Lemme' see here, especially for the benefit of those junior east pilots: Wouldn't the grand and glorious nic enable all out west to instantly become captains?...And yet; you can honestly conceive of any worse result for those now junior within their east list, through MB merging protocols? OK then...Umm....How?

 

[EastUS1]

As times have gone, I have learned one thing. Anything 'ole Chip proclaims, you can pretty much bet against it and make a boat load of money..........

Yep.

 

[Zone5]

Except the MDA pilots lost that argument. Twice.

Next time you see any corporate officer or senior manager ask them if the east and west pilots work for the same airline. If they say no let me know.

Next crew news bring it up to Parker. I would like to hear his answer.

And so will the West.

Let's see, the East and West work for the same airline do they. That's like saying the Navy and the Marine Corps works for for the same Department of Defense. True enough, but do you think there might be a bit of difference? Not the the Army of Leonidas has anything in common with either!

I would prefer to watch you bring it up again. Although you really should refrain from public speaking, you look like such a dork when you do it!

Do you think Parker will countermand Kirby's answer to you the last time you asked? It will still be NO.

This MOU process is going to be allowed to play itself out. The only question is whether it starts off with two DOH lists or three. I think the West would end up better off if it turns out to be three. Personally, I really don't care as long as the snap-shot is taken at the POR, which it will be.


seajay

 

[Zone5]

The snap shot between the east and west is 2005 the time of our merger. The merger between us airways and American is 2013. The new hires go below pilots that were on property in 2005. Just like Nicolau did.

Try and sell DOH all you want. It is still tainted and rotten.

The East and West DOH seniority lists were NEVER combined in accordance with the TA. The MOU tosses out that aborted process in favor of a new one.

The merger with American will integrate the two existing, in use, separate DOH seniority lists at LCC, with the DOH seniority list at AMR.

A merger snap-shot ALWAYS occurs at the POR or effective date of any merger and the seniority list integration dance then begins. You can try to dance with the chicks at the 2005 prom if you so desire, probably more your speed anyway. Face it, you just couldn't "score", why keep trying? I think I will focus on the available partners at the 2013 dance.


seajay

 

[end_of_alpa]

Interesting perspective from East pilot, Chip.

"I have read the transcript and there is a lot to chew on. There are a number of key points.

1. There were no objections to permitting the new American Airlines to intervening.

2. A status report by the parties must be submitted to the court regarding settlement discussions that have basically not occured. This is interesting. With the exception of Marty Harper offering to have an arbitration on whether or not the Nicolau Award has to be used in the upcoming M-B SLI there have been none. This clearly does not bode well for USAPA and Judge Silver appears miffed that this did not occur. It will be very, very interesting to see what the parties present in less than one week to the court by close of business on Tuesday, May 21st.

3. How can USAPA provide a settlement report when their C&BLs require DOH? USAPA has a mandate to seek DOH, which Judge Silver appears to believe is DFR. How will USAPA address this issue?

4. Judge Silver seems to respect Bob Siegel and she seemed to get that the DFR claim is now "ripe" after listening to US Airways' counsel. Siegel's description of the APA Green Book and MOU being a JCBA, except for basically implementation issues such as PBS, appeared to resonate with Judge Silver. And, Pat Szymanski attempted to say the Green Book & MOU was not a contract and the DFR claim was not "ripe", but she would not hear to much from him.

5. Russ Blackwell wrote a compelling review and I believe he's hit the head on the nail. Silver wants this case settled and she's looking for resolution. In my opinion, if USAPA does not come off of their DOH demand and provide a settlement option, that Addington/West Pilot Class can agree to, Silver will issue a DFR order against USAPA.

6. USAPA's PHX-based pilots could have their opportunity to seek a remedy for USAPA reneging on a final and binding agreement because Silver wants the Addington Group to provide a "briefing on what the remedy could or should be if she found a violation of the duty of fair representation."

7. Judge Silver wants to see resolution, which is why she ordered the parties to provide opening briefs on whether the Court has the authority to order that the West Pilots will be a party at the McCaskill-Bond process after listening to Bob Siegel. If Judge Silver orders a 3-way M-B SLI arbitration with 3 different Merger Representative Parties (APA, East Pilots, & West Pilots), USAPA will lose control of the East-West process. And, per Bob Siegel's CAB description there would be no APA or USAPA input, there would 3 Merger Representative Committee's, the West pilots will control their own M-B SLI input, DOH will likely not be an issue, the East pilots will lose their 517 positions at the top of the Nicolau Award list for widebody credit, and the West Pilot Merger Representatives could actually see an even better SLI than the Nicolau Award. What's interesting is that the West Pilot Merger Representatives could re-introduce the Nicolau Award or another suggested East-West list -- it would be their option.

It is clear why Pat Szymanski is vehemently opposed to the West pilots representing them self, but it appears that if the logistics can be worked out and a 3-way M-B SLI proceeds USAPA's PHX-based pilots will control their own M-B SLI arbitration without USAPA's heavy hand and the East pilots, especially those hired between 1984-1988, could be worse off with the M-B Award than if the Nicolau Award had been implemented.

Regards,

Chip"

Chip wouldn't know the law or a lawbook if it were tattooed on his forehead in reverse print. The purpose of the hearing was the temporary injunction. Second, USAPA HAS THE LEGAL HIGH GROUND. Period. Syzmanski knows it, but unfortunately the Judge is using the court to wrap her hands about the law. She came to her senses last time and found for USAPA. It will happen here too. If not, either way it goes to appeals (again). But Chip is definitely NOT the go to source for legal opinion, that's for sure.

 

[Phoenix]

A settlement is imminent.

It's so close you can feel it in the air.

 

[cleardirect]

And so will the West.

Let's see, the East and West work for the same airline do they. That's like saying the Navy and the Marine Corps works for for the same Department of Defense. True enough, but do you think there might be a bit of difference? Not the the Army of Leonidas has anything in common with either!

I would prefer to watch you bring it up again. Although you really should refrain from public speaking, you look like such a dork when you do it!

Do you think Parker will countermand Kirby's answer to you the last time you asked? It will still be NO.

This MOU process is going to be allowed to play itself out. The only question is whether it starts off with two DOH lists or three. I think the West would end up better off if it turns out to be three. Personally, I really don't care as long as the snap-shot is taken at the POR, which it will be.


seajay

If you believe that the west will turn out better with a three way than the Nicolau list.

How about you pick a few milestone west pilots and compare them using each method. Get back to me on what you find? You must have done some research because you would not just make a statement like that without some evidence would you?