Attitude = Reality

[peaches]

Peaches I admire your honest and neutral apraisal of the current situation and indeed the world as a whole. I would however challenge you to attempt a more optomistic view of the future. While often times things are what they seem, seldum do they ever end up as many would predict. This trail of money, greed and power to which everyone complains of has been in existance since Cain looked cross eyed at Able. Nothing is unfortunately ever going to change that. What will set us apart from our history is how we view and impact our present, and what we will do to help shape our future. Granted, the power that be are corupt and many times self centered, I tend to think that even in the most viel, despicable and evil people, have at the least, a small sence of decency. There is always a silver lining.....always.

Jet Tech,
What I am saying is that the economy in it's present form is unsustainable. Yes, eventually things will get better but in order for that to happen, the present situation has to be drastically altered. Oprah did some research and discovered that 60% of all wage earners don't earn enough to support themselves without subsidies. My local newspaper also had an article that said there is not ONE single county in the US that someone can live on minimum wage.

You cannot have plummeting wages in an inflationary economy forever. It just doesn't work. People are raiding their retirement accounts and tapping out their credit cards to live. This is unsustainable. This whole house of cards WILL collapse and eventually something sustainable will replace it. It has to. The biggest problem is that most people will not address the issue until its too late. Unfortunately, because of that, the "house of cards" will collapse.

Will someone please explain to me who is taking money from who. The last time I checked taking money that does not belong to you is called stealing. Thought that was against the law. The problem is that the company changed your rate of pay, and you didn't like it, so you threw a tantrum and stomped your foot like a child. Now unless you can show me evidence that NWA executives personally went into your personal checking account and made a withdraw without your permission, stop using the term "stealing", because it simply does not apply. Or are you so gulable that AMFA has convinced you other wise.

Jet Tech,
Let's look back at history. When asked what the people should eat now that they have no bread, Marie Antionette replied "Let them eat cake." Of course, we all know what the people did to respond to that. She lost her head over it. Granted this situation here isn't that grave...yet. But like I pointed out in the previous post, how bad does it have to get before people see what's happening???

To be fair, I've never made $35/hr at UAL or Boeing. However it's the TREND that's so disturbing. At what point is enough enough?

 

[sentrido]

NAFTA didnt cause any outsourcing. There was nothing stopping it before.

 

[Hackman]

:blink: Hackman, how can you possibly think that these executives had anything to do with the state that the company is in now. This has been building for years, and like it or not AMFA simply helped NWA tie the nuce, while still collecting your dues.

I could explain it to you Jetwreck, but anyone who spells "noose" as "nuce" wouldn't comprehend it in any stretch of the imagination.

This about sums you up... :blink: :blink: :blink: :blink:

 

[ramblingray]

of course with your words, i take it that you dont have a problem with those crooked a**holes takingmoney away from the hard working union people and pocketing for themselves.
that is about as low as you are. it sure sounds like you are part of that mgmt team or a scab at worse

Fortunately for me, I am not and have not ever worked in the airline business. I just think it is hilarious how people come on these forums and they just talk smack. Lets face it. If you owned a business and you had it in the budget that 20% of revenues was supposed to be spent on payroll and then by the demands placed by the "union" you were forced to go higher and hire more and more than you actually needed, eventually it breaks. Come on. You guys are smarter than that.

Used to have what, 4500 guys running around? Now there are 900? Ok, you say some got outsourced, but maybe the union negotiated your salaries so high that it was more cost effective to have it done by an outside vendor.

If you owned the company you would do the same thing.

Example - If you sold gumballs and bought them for 30 cents each and now can buy them for 20 cents each..... DUH!!!

This is America. Stop complaining and go start a business. If you do not feel you are earning what you can, make more somewhere else. You can do it. That is the freedom that we all have.

Stop being Lemmings

 

[PhxMama]

Fortunately for me, I am not and have not ever worked in the airline business. I just think it is hilarious how people come on these forums and they just talk smack. Lets face it. If you owned a business and you had it in the budget that 20% of revenues was supposed to be spent on payroll and then by the demands placed by the "union" you were forced to go higher and hire more and more than you actually needed, eventually it breaks. Come on. You guys are smarter than that.

Used to have what, 4500 guys running around? Now there are 900? Ok, you say some got outsourced, but maybe the union negotiated your salaries so high that it was more cost effective to have it done by an outside vendor.

If you owned the company you would do the same thing.

Example - If you sold gumballs and bought them for 30 cents each and now can buy them for 20 cents each..... DUH!!!

This is America. Stop complaining and go start a business. If you do not feel you are earning what you can, make more somewhere else. You can do it. That is the freedom that we all have.

Stop being Lemmings

Obviously and I mean obviously you know nothing about the airline industry. You know nothing about upper management and the golden parachutes they have given themselves at the expense of their employees. What kind of management would outsource employees and their skills, expect other employees to take pay cuts and then give themselves bonuses for doing it? Ill tell you what kind. The kind that finds themselves with 2 more unions ready to strike and risk their livihoods with families to support. Leadership comes from the top and there has been no meaningful leadership in years. And yes, this is America, the land with laws that allow employees to strike and to say NO MORE. Go back to your day job until you do the research on what these so called management teams have taken from their employees and given to themselves. If you are on this board go read the Red Tail Trailor and look for newspaper articles side by side articulating this point.

 

[peaches]

Fortunately for me, I am not and have not ever worked in the airline business. I just think it is hilarious how people come on these forums and they just talk smack. Lets face it. If you owned a business and you had it in the budget that 20% of revenues was supposed to be spent on payroll and then by the demands placed by the "union" you were forced to go higher and hire more and more than you actually needed, eventually it breaks. Come on. You guys are smarter than that.

Used to have what, 4500 guys running around? Now there are 900? Ok, you say some got outsourced, but maybe the union negotiated your salaries so high that it was more cost effective to have it done by an outside vendor.

If you owned the company you would do the same thing.

Example - If you sold gumballs and bought them for 30 cents each and now can buy them for 20 cents each..... DUH!!!

This is America. Stop complaining and go start a business. If you do not feel you are earning what you can, make more somewhere else. You can do it. That is the freedom that we all have.

Stop being Lemmings

Ramblingray,
I DID just what you said. I left the airline industry and started my own business. Howeverthe rampant greed is inexcusable. When the corporate suits tells everyone that they have to take cuts and then turn around and take millions in perks it's just wrong. If it wasn't wrong Kennith Lay wouldn't be on trial. Although there is some problems with the unions, they aren't the ones on trial these days.

I'm sure if you have read my posts, you would have figured out that I'm anything but a lemming. I cannot speak for the others, they will have to make up their own minds what to do.

 

[Kev3188]

I just think it is hilarious how people come on these forums and they just talk smack.

Kind of like you did in the rest of this post?

 

[finman]

1) Oprah did some research and discovered that 60% of all wage earners don't earn enough to support themselves without subsidies. My local newspaper also had an article that said there is not ONE single county in the US that someone can live on minimum wage.

2) You cannot have plummeting wages in an inflationary economy forever. It just doesn't work. People are raiding their retirement accounts and tapping out their credit cards to live. This is unsustainable. This whole house of cards WILL collapse and eventually something sustainable will replace it.

3) Let's look back at history. When asked what the people should eat now that they have no bread, Marie Antionette replied "Let them eat cake." Of course, we all know what the people did to respond to that. She lost her head over it. Granted this situation here isn't that grave...yet. But like I pointed out in the previous post, how bad does it have to get before people see what's happening???

Peaches,

I think Jet Tech makes some very good points as it relates to market economics. The gloom your predicting based on the extrapolation of a tiny part of our economy is simply misplaced fear.

1) Probably shouldn't be going to Ophrah for your unbiased ecomomic indicators. Those figures would suggest that 60% of all wage-earners are on welfare. I think the real percent of the total population on welfare is less than 5%, so Oprah may have been using some fuzzy math here. Minumum wage is actually only applicable to a tiny fraction of the population, mostly made up of high school kids, so it's a nice little mental excercise, but doesn't really mean anything when the market rates are almost always higher than the minumum wage.

2) Real wages have been increasing between 2-3% annually, outpacing inflation. Tiny fractions of the workforce may be seeing wage reductions, but you are eluding to the economy as a whole, so you should be aware of the statistics of the market as a whole. The economiy is actually very strong right now by all national measures. There are always occupations and skills that are in flux and have decreased market value, but the dynamics of our economy are such that other areas are always more than offsetting those impacts.

3) That is just a silly. Please at least pick up some articles or business journals and get a more general understanding of the economy as a whole. It's painful to hear people get so upset just because they erronously extrapolate their isolated situation to the economy as a whole.

 

[peaches]

Peaches,

I think Jet Tech makes some very good points as it relates to market economics. The gloom your predicting based on the extrapolation of a tiny part of our economy is simply misplaced fear.

1) Probably shouldn't be going to Ophrah for your unbiased ecomomic indicators. Those figures would suggest that 60% of all wage-earners are on welfare. I think the real percent of the total population on welfare is less than 5%, so Oprah may have been using some fuzzy math here. Minumum wage is actually only applicable to a tiny fraction of the population, mostly made up of high school kids, so it's a nice little mental excercise, but doesn't really mean anything when the market rates are almost always higher than the minumum wage.

2) Real wages have been increasing between 2-3% annually, outpacing inflation. Tiny fractions of the workforce may be seeing wage reductions, but you are eluding to the economy as a whole, so you should be aware of the statistics of the market as a whole. The economiy is actually very strong right now by all national measures. There are always occupations and skills that are in flux and have decreased market value, but the dynamics of our economy are such that other areas are always more than offsetting those impacts.

3) That is just a silly. Please at least pick up some articles or business journals and get a more general understanding of the economy as a whole. It's painful to hear people get so upset just because they erronously extrapolate their isolated situation to the economy as a whole.

Finman,
You don't like my sources, fine. So what are your sources? I don't see any listed in your post. Do you think that bankruptcy reform was created in a vacuum? No, it was created as a response to the increase of personal bankrupcty filings.

In fact, I don't see any concrete references in your post at all..not even personal experience. All I see is theroetical rhetoric.

 

[finman]

Finman,
You don't like my sources, fine. So what are your sources? I don't see any listed in your post. Do you think that bankruptcy reform was created in a vacuum? No, it was created as a response to the increase of personal bankrupcty filings.

In fact, I don't see any concrete references in your post at all..not even personal experience. All I see is theroetical rhetoric.

Again, just pick up the Wall Street Journal for a week or so, or read some columns by Thomas Sowell or Charles Krauthammer. You might find my figures to be off by +-.5%, because I'm going from memory, but I was just trying to create a more realistic picture of reality for you, and give you the tools to make more informed arguments.

You're bankupcy question is a good one, and maybe a good start for you to do some digging. Were personal bankruptcies on the rise due to lower incomes or an increase in irresponsible spending brought on by easy credit. I would presume that it was mainly driven by the latter (as well as an increase in bankruptcy lawyers) and that a reduction in personal income was not the problem. I could be wrong, but it might be worth looking into before you claim it's solely driven by wage reductions.

This is a message board, not a term paper. I'm not going to give a list of references for every fairly obvious statement that I make.

 

[finman]

Finman,
You don't like my sources, fine. So what are your sources? I don't see any listed in your post. Do you think that bankruptcy reform was created in a vacuum? No, it was created as a response to the increase of personal bankrupcty filings.

In fact, I don't see any concrete references in your post at all..not even personal experience. All I see is theroetical rhetoric.

Here is an article by one of the nations top economists that supports my previous post.

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/th.../08/185448.html

 

[peaches]

Again, just pick up the Wall Street Journal for a week or so, or read some columns by Thomas Sowell or Charles Krauthammer. You might find my figures to be off by +-.5%, because I'm going from memory, but I was just trying to create a more realistic picture of reality for you, and give you the tools to make more informed arguments.

You're bankupcy question is a good one, and maybe a good start for you to do some digging. Were personal bankruptcies on the rise due to lower incomes or an increase in irresponsible spending brought on by easy credit. I would presume that it was mainly driven by the latter (as well as an increase in bankruptcy lawyers) and that a reduction in personal income was not the problem. I could be wrong, but it might be worth looking into before you claim it's solely driven by wage reductions.

This is a message board, not a term paper. I'm not going to give a list of references for every fairly obvious statement that I make.

Finman, as for your bankrupcty question, I DID do some digging. A few years' back US News & World Report did a lengthly article on bankruptcy reform. They interviewed many bankruptcy judges. The judges were against the reform due to the fact that an overwhelming cause of personal bankruptcies are due to medical bills, not irresponsible spending. And they are right. Today, hospitals are screaming bloody murder over the bad debts incurred by indigent people without insurance. I wonder how the hospitals' administrations view the current state of the economy????

The fact that you so deftly sidestepped my comment on personal experience is not lost on me. I give credit to Jet Tech and Ramblingray for revealing their personal standpoint even if they aren't popular. I also give them credit for not stooping to lobbing rotten tomatos at me. Although I don't agree with everything they say, at least they are relating it to personal experience. I have 19 years' experience in this industry in Flight Operations, Maintenance Operations and Ground Operations. Since your personal standpoint is so glaringly omitted, I won't belabor the point ad nauseum.

Pardon me while I go get a snack....Oops I'm fresh out of bread, guess I'll have to get me a slice of cake.

Here is an article by one of the nations top economists that supports my previous post.

http://www.townhall.com/opinion/columns/th.../08/185448.html

Finman,
So now you are referencing a book review on a website that clearly supports the Republican agenda. Objective? Hardly.

Now...back to that slice of cake....

 

[robbedagain]

it sure is clear to me that you have no idea as to what it is like to have your pay sliced to the bare bones and the benes reduced and the pensions taken away from you right in front of your eyes while mgmt takes huge golden parachutes and huge bonuse but yet retain their pensions. Is that fair to the hard working employees of the airlines? the answer is not and soemthing ought to be done about it. Do a research on both of USAIRWAYS bankruptcy cases and also research how much Stephen Wolf and Rakeesh Gangwal stole from us the employees before they bailed out.

 

[ramblingray]

Ramblingray,
I DID just what you said. I left the airline industry and started my own business. Howeverthe rampant greed is inexcusable. When the corporate suits tells everyone that they have to take cuts and then turn around and take millions in perks it's just wrong. If it wasn't wrong Kennith Lay wouldn't be on trial. Although there is some problems with the unions, they aren't the ones on trial these days.

I'm sure if you have read my posts, you would have figured out that I'm anything but a lemming. I cannot speak for the others, they will have to make up their own minds what to do.

Very Good. Im glad you have done that. And I am sure that you are doing quite well. Better than towing the line for the union. You are right, it is wrong. But if you think it only goes on in the airline industry or the energy industry. Think again. It goes on everywhere. Im glad to see that you have decided to decide your future and not put it in the hands of egotisical money hungry people. (The very kind of people that exist in every industry) I did the same thing 13 years ago when I left a trade and no one tells me how my life is going to end up.

What kind of business do you own? Do you allow your employees group leader tell you what they are going to make? Do you let them tell you what insurance you will be offering to them and on what terms you can rid your company of dead weight employees? Probably not. I know I dont put up with that kind of crap. But I will tell you this, because it is in my hands, I pay my people very well, give each one of them health insurance and retirement plans, etc. I willingly pay each employee about 65,000 a year, and they pay about 35 dollars every other week for family coverage. However, I also decide how many people to keep on the payroll. During economic downturns, I am able to rid myself of 10 or 20 percent of the employees so that I keep my company strong for the remaining 80 to 90 percent. Imagine if I was told I could not get rid of them etc. How financially responsible is this?

Look what is happening to GM, Ford, Delta, Northwest and the list will go on for years to come.

 

[peaches]

Very Good. Im glad you have done that. And I am sure that you are doing quite well. Better than towing the line for the union. You are right, it is wrong. But if you think it only goes on in the airline industry or the energy industry. Think again. It goes on everywhere. Im glad to see that you have decided to decide your future and not put it in the hands of egotisical money hungry people. (The very kind of people that exist in every industry) I did the same thing 13 years ago when I left a trade and no one tells me how my life is going to end up.

What kind of business do you own? Do you allow your employees group leader tell you what they are going to make? Do you let them tell you what insurance you will be offering to them and on what terms you can rid your company of dead weight employees? Probably not. I know I dont put up with that kind of crap. But I will tell you this, because it is in my hands, I pay my people very well, give each one of them health insurance and retirement plans, etc. I willingly pay each employee about 65,000 a year, and they pay about 35 dollars every other week for family coverage. However, I also decide how many people to keep on the payroll. During economic downturns, I am able to rid myself of 10 or 20 percent of the employees so that I keep my company strong for the remaining 80 to 90 percent. Imagine if I was told I could not get rid of them etc. How financially responsible is this?

Look what is happening to GM, Ford, Delta, Northwest and the list will go on for years to come.

I own a spa. I do massage, hypnotherapy and retail/wholesale spa supplies. I have no employees. Doing well? Well that would be debatable...financially, not really, but as far as job satisfaction, for sure! Sounds to me like you pay fair, the main debate on this board is that is the hypocracy of the corporate board telling employees they must take cuts while taking huge bonuses for themselves. Clearly, you are not doing that.