Attitude = Reality

[CSAR GYRENE]

....and your point is? :blink:

Ive demonstrated what a bootlicker is with clear and concise english, if your unable to grasp the basic language then perhaps you should have explored the Idea of "Public Education"!

Ok, I can see this could go on all day, so I will try and narrow the scope a bit. Are the two examples I gave "bootlicking"? Can you give me SPECIFIC examples of ON THE JOB occurrences, that would constitute "bootlicking"?, or are you just going to spout more meaningless name calling?
Also, keep this in mind. It is highly unlikely that I will convince you of my point of view, and it is equally unlikely that I will agree with you. Having said that, the next logical question would be, "Why do we continue to post?" Keep in mind that there are many who read these boards who may be undecided about unionism vice right to work. If you were fairly objective, yet knew little of labor relations, whose posts would stand out as the most articulate and common sensical, and whose posts would more likely resemble the hate-filled ramblings of a quasi religious fanatic? Or is there some sort of middle eground upon which we can agree?

My job is to help deliver a quality aircraft on time, on target....WHATS YOURS?

 

[PlayTheOdds]

Let me try this again, A bootlicker is anyone that works at a pace that exceeds the union set "Work to Rule".

 

[local 12 proud]

Ok, I can see this could go on all day, so I will try and narrow the scope a bit. Are the two examples I gave "bootlicking"? Can you give me SPECIFIC examples of ON THE JOB occurrences, that would constitute "bootlicking"?, or are you just going to spout more meaningless name calling?
Also, keep this in mind. It is highly unlikely that I will convince you of my point of view, and it is equally unlikely that I will agree with you. Having said that, the next logical question would be, "Why do we continue to post?" Keep in mind that there are many who read these boards who may be undecided about unionism vice right to work. If you were fairly objective, yet knew little of labor relations, whose posts would stand out as the most articulate and common sensical, and whose posts would more likely resemble the hate-filled ramblings of a quasi religious fanatic? Or is there some sort of middle eground upon which we can agree?

My job is to help deliver a quality aircraft on time, on target....WHATS YOURS?

I have given you an example of a bootlicker csar, It needs no more clarification. I have wittnessed it in my many years in this Industry, and a SCAB fits the profile!.....enough said. you will never justify your actions to me or any other honorable union men or women. therefore theres not much we can or will agree upon, I see good paying jobs leaving our shore, and you see a way to make a quick buck!

 

[PlayTheOdds]

I see good paying jobs leaving our shore, and you see a way to make a quick buck!

What have the unions done to stop AMT jobs from going overseas? Attacking the companies only gives the companies more reason to ship more jobs overseas.

This was supposed to be a quick buck contract. AMFA has turned it into much more than that.

 

[robbedagain]

the companies can send it overseas all they want, but wait until the first accident happens. see what happens then. if you want a good example of third party maintaince, refer to the crash of Air Midwest Beech 1900 in CLT on JAN 8 2003

 

[PlayTheOdds]

Unionized American mechanics have never had an aircraft go down?

 

[CSAR GYRENE]

I have given you an example of a bootlicker csar, It needs no more clarification. I have wittnessed it in my many years in this Industry, and a SCAB fits the profile!.....enough said. you will never justify your actions to me or any other honorable union men or women. therefore theres not much we can or will agree upon, I see good paying jobs leaving our shore, and you see a way to make a quick buck!

So, in summation, are the two examples I gave examples of "bootlicking", or not?
Remember, I'm just a dumb jarhead. The title of scab has no meaning to me, so to use that as an example is inadequate. Are you unable, or merely unwilling, to give more specific answers?
If you are unable to answer my first examples, here are others.
Is it bootlicking to go above and beyond the call of duty?
Is it bootlicking to give your job every thing you got for 8 hours because thats what your work ethic mandates?
Is it bootlicking to work with mngmt, cleaners, avionics, supply, QC, GSE and others to help deliver a quality aircraft on time on target?
Have I made my point? I, and all the others reading this board,already know of your rapid hatred for scabs, whatever they are, so please try and answer these specific questions. To do otherwise only makes you out to be a buffoon capable only of reciting unionist mantra. I ask you, in all politeness, to address the specific scenerios I posed, and try to illuminate those of us who have never lived under union rules exactly where hard work and mission accomplishment end, and bootlicking begins. Again, I re-iteraate that I am just a dumb Jarhead...please be as specific and clear as possible, using terms a non-unionist would understand, without the rhetoric and hubris that marks the majority of your posts.

 

[TheRealSaabmeister]

So, in summation, are the two examples I gave examples of "bootlicking", or not?
Remember, I'm just a dumb jarhead. The title of scab has no meaning to me, so to use that as an example is inadequate. Are you unable, or merely unwilling, to give more specific answers?
If you are unable to answer my first examples, here are others.
Is it bootlicking to go above and beyond the call of duty?
Is it bootlicking to give your job every thing you got for 8 hours because thats what your work ethic mandates?
Is it bootlicking to work with mngmt, cleaners, avionics, supply, QC, GSE and others to help deliver a quality aircraft on time on target?
Have I made my point? I, and all the others reading this board,already know of your rapid hatred for scabs, whatever they are, so please try and answer these specific questions. To do otherwise only makes you out to be a buffoon capable only of reciting unionist mantra. I ask you, in all politeness, to address the specific scenerios I posed, and try to illuminate those of us who have never lived under union rules exactly where hard work and mission accomplishment end, and bootlicking begins. Again, I re-iteraate that I am just a dumb Jarhead...please be as specific and clear as possible, using terms a non-unionist would understand, without the rhetoric and hubris that marks the majority of your posts.

No, No, and No.

I don't really know if you fall under the definition of "bootlick"

Maybe, to take a word you used, buffoon is more like it. I think it better fits Local 12's definition.

But the title of SCAB should have meaning to you, since it is adequate, it's what you are, and what you fall under the definition of:

1. A worker who refuses membership in a labor union.
2. An employee who works while others are on strike; a strikebreaker.
3. A person hired to replace a striking worker.

Maybe, YES and YES.

You complained previously that AMT's don't get enough respect or get paid enough.

So why are you SCABBING:

intr.v. scabbed, scab·bing, scabs
2. To work or take a job as a scab.

and helping lower the wages of AMT's?

Oh, and because you are just a dumb SCAB jarhead, if you respond to me could you please do it without your SCAB rhetoric and hubris?

P.S.:

I hope this was clear enough for your dumb jarhead pea-brain.

If it's not, then I guess I'll type slower like you did and break it down word by word for you.

 

[PRINCESS KIDAGAKASH]

Csar, when you pencil whip the logbook or glue in those missing screws you're "bootlicking". Since it is a known fact,that you scabs are pencil whipping the logbooks and doing substandard maintenance then you are "bootlickers".

 

[Hackman]

Forced upon you huh? By the TWU? Isn't that the union that you pay to represent you? This is the same union that is supposed to protect you from "The Man"? It sounds to me like the union and company are sleeping together. Your dues or membership means nothing compared to what happens underneath the covers. So let me make sure I have this right, It is wrong to ROLL OVER FOR THE COMPANY MAN that cuts your pay check but it's ok to ROLL OVER FOR THE UNION MAN that takes your money?

Without going into details that you wouldn't understand 'Cods, that's right.... forced concessions by the TWU International. Your right about the TWU International and management having a sleepover, that's why we have been attempting to remove the TWU for 20 years. The problem is the TWU International, not the member on the floor. The unaccountable and unelected TWU International fails to lead, except in the concessions department. There are many good upstanding TWU union members on the floor, and the fight is not with the ones who are legit and try to uphold what is right.

What you have done is prostitute yourself 'Cods, "roll over" if you like, for a greedy dollar, which is fleeting as we speak. Instead of bringing our profession up, you helped management bring it down. Now that they have a taste of blood, YOU ARE NEXT!!! YOUR NWA SCAB PITTANCE WON'T STAY AT $32!!! UNDERSTAND YET??? So jobs will continue to decline in pay and benefits, until workers (not scabs) have had enough, or the Chinese flag flies over your companies property and you accept it. This is what your promoting by your scabbing... "We will work for less". Someday soon, today in fact, high paying technical jobs will all be gone to 3rd world countries. Will the US will work for 3rd world wages? Apparently some will. :down:

What have the unions done to stop AMT jobs from going overseas? Attacking the companies only gives the companies more reason to ship more jobs overseas.

This was supposed to be a quick buck contract. AMFA has turned it into much more than that.

AMFA has fought all foreign outsourcing at NWA, they put a cap on at 38%. The IAM are the ones who signed an agreement in 1995 to let the DC-10's and 747's go to China.

A quick buck scab contract? It looks to be a quick trip to Chapter 7 to many. Enjoy your scab pittance while it lasts 'Cods. :unsure:

Unionized American mechanics have never had an aircraft go down?

Not by negligence, or not following approved manual procedures.

Before you shoot off your uneducated scab pie hole on this subject, you better get your facts straight.

 

[CSAR GYRENE]

No, No, and No.

I don't really know if you fall under the definition of "bootlick"

Maybe, to take a word you used, buffoon is more like it. I think it better fits Local 12's definition.

But the title of SCAB should have meaning to you, since it is adequate, it's what you are, and what you fall under the definition of:

1. A worker who refuses membership in a labor union.
2. An employee who works while others are on strike; a strikebreaker.
3. A person hired to replace a striking worker.

Maybe, YES and YES.

You complained previously that AMT's don't get enough respect or get paid enough.

So why are you SCABBING:

intr.v. scabbed, scab·bing, scabs
2. To work or take a job as a scab.

and helping lower the wages of AMT's?

Oh, and because you are just a dumb SCAB jarhead, if you respond to me could you please do it without your SCAB rhetoric and hubris?

P.S.:

I hope this was clear enough for your dumb jarhead pea-brain.

If it's not, then I guess I'll type slower like you did and break it down word by word for you.

Well put and excellently stated. Yes, under those definitions, I am a scab.
Prior to all this, I have had little knowledge of union matters. Of the 5 or 6 encounters I had had of unions, 4 were bad, one indifferent, and one extremely positive. (TO Jeff and Dave, of the Brotherhood of Electrical Workers, God Bless, and thanks for the steaks).
In defense of those out on strike, I have walked the now empty halls and hangers of B and C buildings in MSP, and can only weep at what once was. Scab or not, I still got JET A in my viens, and to see the incredible capabilities of these facilities now being boxed up, or sold off drives me nuts. I can only imagine what it must be like for some guys who have been here for 35-40 years to see it all go. For the record, I am vehemently against the overseas outsourcing that has led to these buildings becoming a ghost town, and have been VERY vocal about it to my superiors.
Having said that, I must also acknowledge that whether any of us like it or not, it still is the company's right to farm it all out. I fully realize that at any time someone may come along who can do my job cheaper and better. The only job security I have is the fact that there are few people who can do the job better, and fewer stil who can do it better AND cheaper. (This last line is just a ceap shot at humor, and will be the only hubris I shall indulge in on this post)
I do appreciate the forthrightness with which you answered my questions. You do yourself and your orginization credit.

 

[CSAR GYRENE]

Csar, when you pencil whip the logbook or glue in those missing screws you're "bootlicking". Since it is a known fact,that you scabs are pencil whipping the logbooks and doing substandard maintenance then you are "bootlickers".

OK kid, third times the charm! I HAVE ON 3 (THREE) occassions asked you for specific information regarding said pencil whipping, yet you refuse to provide any. Why is that? I am sure there are some guys out there rubber nutting, but I hardly think that has never happened prior to 20 August. Are you prepared to go on the record, officially, and say no hard working and honorable union man has ever performed anything but stellar maintenence, 100 percent by the book?
Now, before you get the silly notion that I condone this behavior, let me re-itterate, again, FOR THE THIRD TIME,
provide me with the names of specific offenders, and I will quite cheerfully drag his or her sorry a$$ out of the facility and stomp there pathetic guts into the ground. As an aside, in a purely hypothetical situation of course, should a union man be found guilty of faulty maintenence, and putting lives at risk by cutting corners, what steps would the union take to ensure that said piece of filth never works on aircraft again? (be careful, this is a trick question)

 

[local 12 proud]

So, in summation, are the two examples I gave examples of "bootlicking", or not?
Remember, I'm just a dumb jarhead. The title of scab has no meaning to me, so to use that as an example is inadequate. Are you unable, or merely unwilling, to give more specific answers?
If you are unable to answer my first examples, here are others.
Is it bootlicking to go above and beyond the call of duty?
Is it bootlicking to give your job every thing you got for 8 hours because thats what your work ethic mandates?
Is it bootlicking to work with mngmt, cleaners, avionics, supply, QC, GSE and others to help deliver a quality aircraft on time on target?
Have I made my point? I, and all the others reading this board,already know of your rapid hatred for scabs, whatever they are, so please try and answer these specific questions. To do otherwise only makes you out to be a buffoon capable only of reciting unionist mantra. I ask you, in all politeness, to address the specific scenerios I posed, and try to illuminate those of us who have never lived under union rules exactly where hard work and mission accomplishment end, and bootlicking begins. Again, I re-iteraate that I am just a dumb Jarhead...please be as specific and clear as possible, using terms a non-unionist would understand, without the rhetoric and hubris that marks the majority of your posts.

Did I ever state your examples were Bootlicking?

I did'nt think so! I gave you an example of a bootlick and a SCAB falls within those boundries as far as Im concerned.
you decided to help sell out this craft and that is a "BOOTLICKER", you crossed a picket line and that is a "BOOTLICKER", you chose the side of management and not the side of those striking to save jobs and that is a "BOOTLICKER" are these enough example's jarhead,...Have I made my point?....Have you been illuminated yet?

for someone who equates UNIONISM to RELIGION as yourself, It does'nt really boggle my mind why you have such a hard time making a distinction!


TheRealSaabmeister already defined SCAB for you so I'll not repeat that, But you are one and will always be as such.

You have the audacity to point the finger and chastise someone of rhetoric and hubris in their writings Is'nt that kinda like "the pot calling the kettle black"?

yea I think the Saabmeister made a keen observation who the real Buffoon is!

 

[finman]

Did I ever state your examples were Bootlicking?

I did'nt think so! I gave you an example of a bootlick and a SCAB falls within those boundries as far as Im concerned.
you decided to help sell out this craft and that is a "BOOTLICKER", you crossed a picket line and that is a "BOOTLICKER", you chose the side of management and not the side of those striking to save jobs and that is a "BOOTLICKER" are these enough example's jarhead,...Have I made my point?....Have you been illuminated yet?

for someone who equates UNIONISM to RELIGION as yourself, It does'nt really boggle my mind why you have such a hard time making a distinction!
TheRealSaabmeister already defined SCAB for you so I'll not repeat that, But you are one and will always be as such.

You have the audacity to point the finger and chastise someone of rhetoric and hubris in their writings Is'nt that kinda like "the pot calling the kettle black"?

yea I think the Saabmeister made a keen observation who the real Buffoon is!

From an outsiders perspective, it seems like the term "bootlicker" gets used for anyone that hopes to see NWA succeed.

Just thinking of the literal interpretation of the word, it would seem like a replacement worker (I choose not to refer to them as scabs, because from this board they have shown me that they are much more intelligent and honorable than their hateful detractors) would be anything but a "bootlicker". They took the open mechanic positions out of pure self-interest, not to suck up to anybody. Obviously, it was a mutually beneficial arrangement, but that is the expected outcome of a market driven transaction.

I would be interested to hear your answer to CSAR's three examples, and whether or not you consider them "bootlicking". Your refusal to answer a simple hypothetical question makes people wonder what you're hiding.

I think CSAR makes a good point about the die-hard unionism / religion aspect that may be at play. They are obviously not one in the same, but I think there are crossover characteristics that make them very similar in how the members of a said group think and behave. For example, just as you could never convince a faithful christian that evolution exists, even in the face of indisputable evidence, I doubt you could ever convince a pure unionist that it's OK to work harder than the guy next to you in an effort to become more successful.

It just seems that in these discussions, logic gets thrown out the door in an effort to protect this "workers paradise" dream where market economics is circumvented and price points are determined by "need" and "obligation" and "seniority" rather than demand and supply and merit.

 

[777 fixer]

For months now I have listened to the most vile slander that I have ever heard in my life regarding the Northwest strike, replacement workers and direction of the company. Everyone from the AMFA Mechanics on strike to the flight attendants seem to do nothing but complain. I am proud to admit that I am a replacement worker, further more, I am very proud of what I have accomplished. That being said, I have just one simple message to the overwhelming pessimestic masses. edited by moderator If you are so unhappy with the way things are going, quit and find another job. I learned along time ago that your focus and attitude will determine your reality. You were born with the ability to make decisions, you have the ability to effect your reality and the way I see it you have two choices. Quit complaining and be happy with what you have, or continue to complain and be misserable. Now I may be just unusual, but from where I'm sitting, anyone who chooses to live in self-induced missery has got some serious mental issues. If you don't like the way that things are going, leave, but for Gods sake SHUT UP!!!!!

Yes a positive attitude can mean the difference between being miserable and being happy. Basically what you are talking about is a self fulfilling prophecy so you really are not saying anything profound.

With that said there are also those who are positive to the point of being disconnected from reality. Do you honestly think that NWA won't possibly cut your pay or benefits? Or if it suits them to lay you off? You are working for a company that obviously views it's employees as a liablity and not an asset. One not need to work for NWA or be an airline industry insider to figure that out. All one needs to do is pick up the newspaper.

You are also working for an airline that is in a very percarious position when compared to the rest of the industry, and that's saying something. An airline whose only idea, it seems, to turn things around is to start an airline within an airline. Where have we heard that before? Can you say Continental Lite, Metro Jet, Shuttle by United or Song.