CATIII cert for E190

[PHL]

Since this topic started over on the "US pulling out of BOS" thread, I thought I'd ask another question in its own thread since the mod cracked the whip to keep it on topic..

What kind of crew scheduling challenges will arise when the E190's are CATIII certified? Will all E190 pilots be getting CATIII certified at the same time the aircraft(s) are given the green light? And, can a pilot be CATIII certified for one aircraft type and be "legal" to fly a CATIII approach in another for which they happen to be type rated?

Example: An Airbus pilot who is CAT III certified for those landings in an appropriately rated A319/320/321 is moved over to flying the E190. He's type rated for both..does his CAT III cert for the Airbus qualify him on the E190, or will he have to attain that, too?

And, to go further - which types in the US fleet *ARE* CATIII certified?

 

[Dorf]

Since this topic started over on the "US pulling out of BOS" thread, I thought I'd ask another question in its own thread since the mod cracked the whip to keep it on topic..

What kind of crew scheduling challenges will arise when the E190's are CATIII certified? Will all E190 pilots be getting CATIII certified at the same time the aircraft(s) are given the green light? And, can a pilot be CATIII certified for one aircraft type and be "legal" to fly a CATIII approach in another for which they happen to be type rated?

As autofixer stated in the other thread..."The company is still installing in the airplanes the upgraded rudder servos to allow for CAT III. Once that is complete and certified, the pilots are already trained and certified, so it should happen quickly. "

Dorf

 

[nycbusdriver]

Since this topic started over on the "US pulling out of BOS" thread, I thought I'd ask another question in its own thread since the mod cracked the whip to keep it on topic..

What kind of crew scheduling challenges will arise when the E190's are CATIII certified? Will all E190 pilots be getting CATIII certified at the same time the aircraft(s) are given the green light? And, can a pilot be CATIII certified for one aircraft type and be "legal" to fly a CATIII approach in another for which they happen to be type rated?

Example: An Airbus pilot who is CAT III certified for those landings in an appropriately rated A319/320/321 is moved over to flying the E190. He's type rated for both..does his CAT III cert for the Airbus qualify him on the E190, or will he have to attain that, too?

And, to go further - which types in the US fleet *ARE* CATIII certified?

I believe someone already mentioned that the E190 pilots are already trained/certified to fly that airplane to CAT III minimums. It's the airplanes that still lack the certification. In order to do CAT II and CAT III approaches, the pilots, the airplanes and the airport must be certified for it. If any one of the three is lacking, the approaches cannot be made to those minima.

The CAT III certification has nothing to do with the license that an insturment rated pilot holds, i.e. there is no notation on the license that indicates "CAT III" qualification. It is strictly a training/certification process done when initially qualifying on the type of airplane, and repeated at recurrency training each year (for USAirways pilots, anyway.) Since it's not part of the pilot license, it does not carry over to other types. The pilot must qualify for CAT II and III certification on each type he/she flies. When new on a type of airplane, CAT II and III authorization for captains is withheld until a certain level of experience is attained. (Only captains at USAirways can be the controlling pilot on CAT II and III approaches...the autopilot actually flies the airplane to landing.)

There should be negligible impact to crew scheduling one way or the other. When a new captain is on board, there are rare instances when a flight must be recrewed in the captain position if destination weather demands a CAT II or III approach. (I spent a dreadful Thanksgiving in downtown Pittsburgh once...when I should have been home...because I was CAT III qualified and was forced to trade seats with a new captain who was not able to get into Pittsburgh that night to to very low visibility.)

Once the E190 is certified, all mainline aircraft are CAT II and III certified. I don't believe the 737s, though, are CAT IIIb, only IIIa. I think the west metal is the same for each type.

 

[john john]

The company is still installing in the airplanes the upgraded rudder servos to allow for CAT III.
Dorf

This is going on right NOW. Are there E190 with this MOD already?

 

[Irideover]

This is going on right NOW. Are there E190 with this MOD already?

yes.

 

[nycbusdriver]

OK

What is CATIII and why is it good/bad for US Airways?

It has to do with how bad the visibility can get and still have your aircraft land. The normal Cat I ILS allows for as low as 1/2 mile. All instrument rated pilots can fly that one. Cat II and III allow for progressively less visibility, dwn to as low as 300 feet visibility with a Cat IIIb.

Although they are normally flown by the autopilot through touchdown, some aircraft are certified for Cat II approaches/landings to be hand flown (B727 and F28 come to mind.) Cat III approaches and landings must be autopilot flown.

Although it's rare that actual conditions require Cat II and III (or even Cat I, for that matter,) it does indeed happen. And on days when it is happening at a hub airport, you can see how this is important to the airline operations.

 

[AtlanticBeach]

To take this off-topic a bit, when BWI was Friendship Airport, I learned to fly at Friendship Flying Service. On days the weather turned lousy, IAD was a great underused place to practice ILS approaches. Landing fee was $1.10. Payment was made at the gift shop on the lower level of the main terminal (honest!). A candy bar and a soda brought the price up to $2.00.

That was when the designation "Heavy" began. One day, Dulles Approach was trying to separate traffic. Pan Am 11 Heavy was in front of me and a couple of other 74's were on my tail. Here's the conversation I remember 35 years later.

Approach: 43 Juliet direct to outer marker runway 19 Right. Descend and maintain 3,000.
Me: Descend and maintain 3, 43 Juliet
Approach: 43 Juliet can you give me 150 knots to the marker?
Me: No sir, 43 Juliet.
Approach: 43 Juliet, confirm type aircraft.
Me: PA 28 Heavy (thats a Piper Arrow. Seats 4 on a good day. 180 hp Lycoming engine)
Approach with multiple people laughing in the background: OK, 43 Juliet cleared for the approach 19 Right, you have half of London following you, so maintain 120 as long as practical.

You gotta love a controller with a sense of humor.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

To take this off-topic a bit, when BWI was Friendship Airport, I learned to fly at Friendship Flying Service...

Small world. I used to work at Friendship Flying Service (the south ramp) when I was in college. Best aviation job I ever had.

 

[john john]

I believe someone already mentioned that the E190 pilots are already trained/certified to fly that airplane to CAT III minimums.
When new on a type of airplane, CAT II and III authorization for captains is withheld until a certain level of experience is attained.

What is the FAR on experience
Day one of the E190 certification there are captains certified now to shoot CAT II or III approach
jetBlue had a problem when they introduce the E190 into the north east market because of the certification of A/C and crew

 

[wings396]

I can recall a few times when we had an F-100 crewed with a "High minimums" Captain, and they sat until the WX improved at the downline station. I assume that the F-100 was Cat-3 rated given the "Glass" cockpit.

 

[BoeingBoy]

What is the FAR on experience
Day one of the E190 certification there are captains certified now to shoot CAT II or III approach

It's called "high minimums" for new captains. I haven't bothered to look it up, but IIRC a new captain with less than 100 hours as captain has to add 100' to the published minimums. So while technically certified for CAT II & III, the minimums that new captains can use aren't those published for CAT II & III.

Jim

 

[nycbusdriver]

It's called "high minimums" for new captains. I haven't bothered to look it up, but IIRC a new captain with less than 100 hours as captain has to add 100' to the published minimums. So while technically certified for CAT II & III, the minimums that new captains can use aren't those published for CAT II & III.

Jim

I haven't dealt with "high minimums" personally in many years. But you are right that a new captain is on "high minimums" until he/she has accumulated 100 hours as captain in type. I believe they have added a glitch in there for Cat II approaches for "high minimums" captains under certain circumstances. Since it doesn't apply to me, I never paid any attention to it so I'm not sure what that glitch is.

It's theoretically possible for a "high minimums" captain with 99.5 hours in type to refuse an approach due to weather, and, while in the holding pattern, go over his/her 100 hours in type, and proceed to land Cat III with 300 feet visibility. Ya just gotta love the FAA.

 

[citrus jock]

I haven't dealt with "high minimums" personally in many years. But you are right that a new captain is on "high minimums" until he/she has accumulated 100 hours as captain in type. I believe they have added a glitch in there for Cat II approaches for "high minimums" captains under certain circumstances. Since it doesn't apply to me, I never paid any attention to it so I'm not sure what that glitch is.

It's theoretically possible for a "high minimums" captain with 99.5 hours in type to refuse an approach due to weather, and, while in the holding pattern, go over his/her 100 hours in type, and proceed to land Cat III with 300 feet visibility. Ya just gotta love the FAA.

I did just that, except it was a CAT I on a DC9. My minimums (as a high mins. Capt.) were 1 mile vis. when I departed MEM for ATL. We were given holding at the RMG VOR. After being released from holding, I told ATC I needed another 3 turns in the pattern (visibility was still 1/2 in ATL). After 3 more turns over RMG, I was no longer high mins., and was legal for the approach. Perfectly legal, and an absolute waste of time and fuel.

 

[ItsJustAJob]

I haven't dealt with "high minimums" personally in many years. But you are right that a new captain is on "high minimums" until he/she has accumulated 100 hours as captain in type. I believe they have added a glitch in there for Cat II approaches for "high minimums" captains under certain circumstances. Since it doesn't apply to me, I never paid any attention to it so I'm not sure what that glitch is.

It's theoretically possible for a "high minimums" captain with 99.5 hours in type to refuse an approach due to weather, and, while in the holding pattern, go over his/her 100 hours in type, and proceed to land Cat III with 300 feet visibility. Ya just gotta love the FAA.

He is correct, a High Minimums captain can fly a CATII approach using published CATII minimums.

Go figure.

 

[usabusdriver]

It has to do with how bad the visibility can get and still have your aircraft land. The normal Cat I ILS allows for as low as 1/2 mile. All instrument rated pilots can fly that one. Cat II and III allow for progressively less visibility, dwn to as low as 300 feet visibility with a Cat IIIb.

Although they are normally flown by the autopilot through touchdown, some aircraft are certified for Cat II approaches/landings to be hand flown (B727 and F28 come to mind.) Cat III approaches and landings must be autopilot flown.

Although it's rare that actual conditions require Cat II and III (or even Cat I, for that matter,) it does indeed happen. And on days when it is happening at a hub airport, you can see how this is important to the airline operations.

I belive that Alaska pilots are certified for Cat IIIb hand flown, but they do have the HUD.