Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

Discussion in 'American Airlines' started by Admin, Dec 6, 2012.


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  1. Admin

    Admin Administrator

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  2. traderjake

    traderjake Veteran

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  3. Claxon

    Claxon Veteran

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  4. cleardirect

    cleardirect Veteran

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    Just wasted three hours of my life reading the so called "smoking gun" pension document that was supposed to bring Parker to his knees begging for mercy.

    First hopefully you guys will believe this document. The urban myth is that ALPA gave away the pension in the middle of the night without a vote. I have posted the transcripts from the LOA 93 arbitration. But here it is again. Straight from the document commissioned and paid for by usapa. Not ALPA, not some biased group hostile to east pilots but usapa.


    In 2003, a bankruptcy court found that the Plan was underfunded, terminated the Plan, and appointed the PBGC as the terminated Plan’s statutory trustee.


    A bankruptcy court terminated the plan. No mention of ALPA. A judge took your plan.


    Now as far as the rest of the 65 pages. A whole lot of inferences and subtle accusations. It would seem that anyone that had anything to do with the plan must have been some sort of criminal since they accuse just about every company that was listed.

    Couple things really stood out. Count up how many time this report uses the word MAY. Someone MAY have done something. A company MAY have had a bad thought.

    Next was, usapa and the pension committee has spend nearly $4 million dollars to find out what happened. This entire report talks about all the things that MAY have happened and should be investigated. Damn boys what have they been doing for the last 4 years and $4 million dollars? Got a lot of questions but no answers, really the point of the entire exercise wasn't it?

    Ask yourself. What did you get for your money? These appear to be the same questions you all had 4 years and $4 million dollars ago.

    Now I see there is a resolution from the PIC at the BPR. Let me guess. They are going to ask for just a bit more money to investigate just a little bit more. Fortuitous timing that they release the "smoking gun" just in time for the BPR meeting.

    I bet they shake that report and tell all that they are close to solving the mystery. A couple bucks more and they will have the answers. They will get your money and they will put people in jail.

    Now I don't care either way as long as it is an east assessment only. But the huckster sales job of a little more money is sad and not fair to you guys. Reminds me of the guys that calls the little old lady and offers to get her money back from the Internet thief, if she only pays him a couple thousand more he will get her money back.

    Wonder what that report cost?
     
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  5. cleardirect

    cleardirect Veteran

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  6. EastUS1

    EastUS1 Veteran

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    Callaway said: ".....The only way for negotiations to proceed is for USAPA to notify the NMB that they are ready to accept the NIC for section 22 and they would like to re-open negotiations on the other sections.

    Sounds like the FAs are on recess with their negotiations as well following a failed ratification vote of a negotiated TA. Guess the NMB doesn't think there is much more work that can be done with that group either."

    Those two above logically connect in absolutely no way whatsoever.

    "Guess the NMB doesn't think there is much more work that can be done with that group either." Sigh!...If you've yet to honestly figure out just how obscenely rigged against industry labor this whole, sorry little game is under the NMB/RLA....well....what can be said? If you've equal ignorance of just how little effect, magically and instantly adopting the nic would have...well...naive is a term worthy of some contemplation here, and do note again your observation on the FA group's "progress" against the wunderkinder in tempe = "Guess the NMB doesn't think there is much more work that can be done with that group either." Consider your observation further. ANY agency that was honestly seeking the facilitation of labor contracts would hardly evidence such "thinking"....ever. Under the RLA, labor is constrained by the NMB's little games. Labor groups must be ALLOWED = "Released" to strike. Consider that whenever cavalierly observing the glorious NMB's "actions"...or wholesale lack thereof. IF indeed the glorious NMB felt no further progress was possible; wouldn't it be their honor-bound-duty to say so and quickly release labor to self-help?...WTF's up with these "recesses" then? Wake up and smell the manure...There's certainly NO shortage of it, and the industry's labor has been drowning in it for years now.

    No matter I suppose, since all that's needed to completely change all of this would be for the east to accept the nic, at which point in time, an industry leading (or even SLIGHTLY acceptable) contract would instantly spring forth....Understood ;)
     
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  7. Claxon

    Claxon Veteran

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    cleardirect post

    "Damn boys what have they been doing for the last 4 years and $4 million dollars? Got a lot of questions but no answers, really the point of the entire exercise wasn't it?

    Ask yourself. What did you get for your money? These appear to be the same questions you all had 4 years and $4 million dollars ago.
    ...............................,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
    Now I don't care either way as long as it is an east assessment only. But the huckster sales job of a little more money is sad and not fair to you guys. Reminds me of the guys that calls the little old lady and offers to get her money back from the Internet thief, if she only pays him a couple thousand more he will get her money back."


    Dear clear

    What have you received for your few millions with army of leonidas and it's crack legal team? Nothing. What kind of retirement do you have? Nothing that was not handed to you.

    You are in denial.
     
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  8. Claxon

    Claxon Veteran

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  9. EastUS1

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    No myth. The court only "took" the pension after the alpa wunderkinder surrendered it to them, and yes; in the middle fo the night and without a vote. You've not even the slightest, nay infinitesimally tiny idea of anything you're mindlessly blathering on about here. Your wholesale ignorance of events and timing, not to mention complete lack of ANY understanding here, coupled with your dogged determination to NEVER see anything that ill-suits any of your personal fantasies, remains nothing short of mind-boggling.
     
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  10. CallawayGolf

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    Sure they do unless you make a practice of suppressing logic in favor of accepting the contrived notions advanced by USAPA.

    The manure labor has be drowning in is of their own making. The RLA and the NMB are all but worthless except for the harm they bring to the economy and the consumer, but they certainly don’t favor management over labor. Like most bureaucracies they exist first and foremost to serve themselves so that they can convince their funding source that they serve a useful purpose. Labor makes up a very small percentage of the population and stockholders and officers of transportation companies even fewer still. So the NMB is there to not upset the apple cart with the public who only want to get from point A to B. With every carrier reporting high load factors there is virtually no chance that they will release the parties to self-help. Even if they did the POTUS won’t let it happen in the wake of a public outcry for flights to resume. So the NMB pokes the parties to come to a reasonable agreement. If they won’t, then they get parked like USAPA will be until they accept the NIC.

    NIC+Kirby = JCBA for $120m annually. Four years later that sets the floor of wages lost to fighting the NIC at $480m with virtually all of that improvement going east. Money the east will never see again and it just keeps getting worse with every year of delay.
     
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  11. Phoenix

    Phoenix Veteran

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    I just saved three hours of my life. I didn't read his post past the first line, neither did I bother to attempt his reasoning.. It was most likely going to be some repeated condemnation based on self-serving, contorted notions of integrity, coupled with slander of those who exercised their lawful rights. Then he probably followed that by calls to capitulate, beg for mercy now, and thus avoid certain impending doom that only escalates as time marches toward the inevitable userpation of all things held dear to the East, including their boats, airplanes, sports cars, and groupies... The west are the true rock stars.
     
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  12. EastUS1

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    Sigh!....Yes indeed. All of the rapacious plundering done industry-wide, especially since 9-11, with airline labor being universally unable to so much as strike (without the "blessings" of the noble NMB) and what laughably passes for "management" in the industry able to frivolously employ corporate "bankruptcy" scams as they please, has all been labor's evil and misguided doings....I think we're done here. ;)

    callaway: "The RLA and the NMB are all but worthless except for the harm they bring to the economy and the consumer, but they certainly don’t favor management over labor."

    Umm...."they certainly don’t favor management over labor."...? Your hearty support of the nic and routine applause for management is now more easilly understood = You can't so much as smell manure, even when you're completely submerged in it! :)
     
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  13. EastUS1

    EastUS1 Veteran

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    WHAT!!??..."airplanes, sports cars" and now, even the groupies!!??...BS!!! only "From my cold, dead hands!" :)
     
  14. cactusboy53

    cactusboy53 Veteran

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    No change Clax. Here are the words that are the most important in Judge Silver's order: "..US Airline Pilots Association’s seniority proposal does not breach its duty of fair representation provided it is supported by a legitimate union purpose (LUP)...."

    Hurry up and get us a contract with DOH / DOH-lite. Get LCC to sign on the dotted line, and we will be "off to the races"!

    Hey! Here's a great idea: Why don't you fill pages up here on how many upgrades you're going to get, and how you are instructing the new hires to keep the Westies fenced in PHX so that the new hires can be Captains in a few years?

    SYIC-A
     
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  15. nic4us

    nic4us Veteran

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    They are not going to get a contract...DOH or otherwise.

    Usapa is absolutely incapable of the most basic functions.

    But, to answere Claxon's question about what we got for our 2 million in legal expenses, that is simple.

    We get the Nic, to it's terms, as the only system seniority list at LCC. Now maybe a merger or some other circumstance will come up and put an end to usapa.
     
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  16. Phoenix

    Phoenix Veteran

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    In accordance with the USAPA Constitution & Bylaws Article V Section 3 and USAPA UOM Section 3 Paragraph I.a.1, President Gary Hummel is calling the December Regular Meeting of the Board of Pilot Representatives to commence at 0900 on Tuesday, December 11, 2012 and adjourn on Wednesday, December 12, 2012 or at the conclusion of business. This regular meeting will be held in the USAPA Offices.

    The agenda for this meeting is (not in order of business to be conducted):
    • Approval of past meeting minutes
    • Officer reports
    • CAPA Officer briefing
    • Scheduling Committee report on new FAA Flight, Duty and Rest Requirements
    • Semi-annual Committee Reports
    • Negotiating Advisory Committee update

    Proposed Resolution Subjects:

    Management Pilots Return To Voting/Honorary Membership

    Date Of Hire Funding Resolution

    PIC Resolution

    Comprehensive ProposalMOU Seniority List Durability Clause Resolution

    USAPA Communications Committee To Utilize Public Relations Professional

    Equivalency In Pay, Benefits, And Retirement

    Resolution To Require Written Agreement Of US Airways And USAPA To Modify The Transition Agreement.

    Comply With The ALPA Merger Policy

    Resolution To Require Compliance With The Transition Agreement Mandate For The “Fair And Equitable Distribution

    Of Flying Between The Two Pilot Groups.”

    Committee Chairmen Authority To Utilize Subject Matter Experts

    Resolution To Interpret The USAPA Constitution So As To Ignore And Amend Paragraph 8. D

    An “Objective” Of USAPA
     
  17. EastUS1

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    1) As utterly astonishing and just-plain-inconceivable as it might seem; it is not the vaunted "army" of leo-whatever, not even your finest "spartans" or "knights", that will make any judgement of what constitutes any/all legitimacy in union purposes. You're running a purely faith-based cult out there....period.

    2) They don't need any "instructing", assuming they came in blessed with the mental acuity needed to both walk and chew gum at the same time. Why don't you folks get busy instead, instructing them on the obvious benefits of having 1700 or so placed on top of their current "career expectations" and "relative seniority"? ;)

    "...keep the Westies fenced in PHX.." sounds very much like a "personal problem" to me. You could, as we speak, be bidding east on your DOH, but chose to play other games instead. The west could have offered some/ANY sensible compromise at Wye, but adamantly chose not to do so. Enough with your pointless and incesseant whining out there already. You've made of your group one that isn't truly the apex performer of all sympathy garnering enterprises throughout human history.
     
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  18. Claxon

    Claxon Veteran

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    "It is off to the races" you say. That is not a good analogy to your future attempt at a DFR suit, unless you race turtles. SYIC for the next 10 years. Keep sending fergie the money.
     
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  19. nic4us

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    Gee..I wonder which resolutions will pass and which will be voted down 8 to 3.
     
  20. nic4us

    nic4us Veteran

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    What...you did not see my response?

    10 years? How do you figure? The company will settle without it ever going to court, and they will do it pretty darn fast.

     
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