Dec 2012 / Jan 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[PullUp]

Well said sir. For myself; the issues here are avoiding intentionally falling prey to obviously inadequate, contractual language (to say the VERY least there) and properly employing the unique, current conditions to the group's best tactical advantage. Pretty basic stuff really....yet some of the responses to such seemingly simple and obvious notions are nothing short of astonishing here.

Imo: No sane person would ever even sign any contract for a car purchase that's crafted with the type of language contained (or most notably omitted) in this MOU. What's spoken of in road shows or anywhere else does nothing to change what the actual, legal instrument contains...nothing whatsoever. Any and all future disputes won't address what anyone now says, but will instead be contested from the contents, as written, of the instrument it's self. But, But!...The salesmen said!?....won't carry even the slightest weight.

"...these concessions will never be recovered." Indeed. I can only again note the old poker axiom: "If after sitting at any table for 30 minutes you don't know who the sucker is...it's you."

I wholeheartedly agree with the language issue. Vague and inexact language get trampled on by management at every opportunity. Hell, they have a committee that meets weekly to brainstorm for new loopholes (real or imagined) in the pilots contract. Don't like their interpretation, grieve it. We all know how THAT works....
I know ironclad language in a contract works both ways, but really? Look at this folks - not the glossy brochure - download the actual MOU from the USAPA site and read it. Now, read it again and pretend you are management and only have to abide by what is written.
You think 500 unresolved grievances is a lot - wait until this thing kicks in.
It was made vague for a reason, and our NAC accepted those reasons. Ask them why. It is not acceptable to work out the details AFTER the document is signed.
Been there, done that before.
History has proven it's not a good deal.
NO.

 

[Zone5]

Rriigghhtt.....

Who was the west pilot in court in CLT for the injunction?? Courtney Borman doesn't count.

You think you have a lottery ticket now and will get DOH with the APA?? Step away from the pipe!!!

65% of the East in the top 50% of a combined list with AA. Let me know how that works out for you. Those LOA93 pay rates your so proud of are going to really help your cause.

I don't "think" anything, with regard to the SLI with APA, I know that USAPA will be seeking a DOH methodology with C&R's (fences). How the inevitable (mandated by the MOU process) outcome of the negotiation and or arbitration turns out, is yet to be determined and you are free to "conjure up" anything you want to believe about the result. Just keep in mind that anyone who say's they "know" what the result is eventually going to be is well.......delusional.

Furthermore, from the POR forward (which is when the SLI process begins) LOA93 pay rates will be a thing of the past and our pay going foreword throughout the SLI process will be equal to APAs'.


seajay

 

[Al Legheny]

He was cruel but fair......

Dinsdale and Doug also used impecable logic....

 

[PullUp]

Funny. You complain about having to pay for another airlines BK. Do you not see the irony of your complaint?

The west pilots were asked to pay for the east BK. and east pilots are demanding that the west to give up seniority too.

Buddy, this has to do with the west also. Are you happy with a 10k pat on the head? Haven't you given up contractual improvements over the last 8 years? Doesn't this bother you that you will be slapped into a BK contract? Doesn't it bother you that you will lose profit sharing in a company that will potentially make 2 billion in profits per year? And then you'll have to pay four times as much for a Rx in copays?
All I'm saying is that this contract stinks and that there is a better deal in the 11th hour.
I'm not dwelling the past, I'm considering it in the context of the future.
There is irony in any situation if you are inclined to look for it. However, I don't place a lot of blame on east or west, but management, who have profited from our plight every day since 2005. Don't you feel used and abused? I do, and I want to make sure Parker leaves some $$ on the nightstand before he leaves the room.
NO.

 

[Phoenix]

I wholeheartedly agree with the language issue. Vague and inexact language get trampled on by management at every opportunity. Hell, they have a committee that meets weekly to brainstorm for new loopholes (real or imagined) in the pilots contract. Don't like their interpretation, grieve it. We all know how THAT works....
I know ironclad language in a contract works both ways, but really? Look at this folks - not the glossy brochure - download the actual MOU from the USAPA site and read it. Now, read it again and pretend you are management and only have to abide by what is written.
You think 500 unresolved grievances is a lot - wait until this thing kicks in.
It was made vague for a reason, and our NAC accepted those reasons. Ask them why. It is not acceptable to work out the details AFTER the document is signed.
Been there, done that before.
History has proven it's not a good deal.
NO.

That is good advice. I am not optimistic a majority will get it until they realize they have handed over all the goods in exchange for a truck load of perfumed dirt.

 

[dca319]

Buddy, this has to do with the west also. Are you happy with a 10k pat on the head? Haven't you given up contractual improvements over the last 8 years? Doesn't this bother you that you will be slapped into a BK contract? Doesn't it bother you that you will lose profit sharing in a company that will potentially make 2 billion in profits per year? And then you'll have to pay four times as much for a Rx in copays?
All I'm saying is that this contract stinks and that there is a better deal in the 11th hour.
I'm not dwelling the past, I'm considering it in the context of the future.
There is irony in any situation if you are inclined to look for it. However, I don't place a lot of blame on east or west, but management, who have profited from our plight every day since 2005. Don't you feel used and abused? I do, and I want to make sure Parker leaves some $$ on the nightstand before he leaves the room.
NO.

Don't you understand this is only an MOU and much of what you disagree with will be more than likely resolved in the JCBA? And don't you think if your NAC tells you they got what they could that you should probably think they're right? And if the company says no thanks, where are we then? Status quo with CoC leverage? YES.

 

[PullUp]

How about an equal retirement for everyone that does not have PBGC checks like the resolution that was voted down by the east reps?

Eastus wants what the APA boys have but got all bent out of shape when it was suggested that someone gets what he has.

How about the east & west get an equal contribution to retirement funding that the AA pilots will receive annually to maintain their frozen pension fund?

 

[dca319]

That is good advice. I am not optimistic a majority will get it until they realize they have handed over all the goods in exchange for a truck load of perfumed dirt.

What is it again you're thinking you have that'll get you more?

 

[PullUp]

Don't you understand this is only an MOU and much of what you disagree with will be more than likely resolved in the JCBA? And don't you think if your NAC tells you they got what they could that you should probably think they're right? And if the company says no thanks, where are we then? Status quo with CoC leverage? YES.

You actually believe that drivel? A multibillion dollar deal and they can't cough up a couple million more? Give me a break.
I stand by my assertion that whatever we give up in concessions (and there are MANY concessions here), we will never see again.
Your management is salivating over this forced capitulation of our contracts, pushing us into an inferior agreement that will make us work more for less.
NO.

 

[EastUS1]

Don't you understand this is only an MOU and much of what you disagree with will be more than likely resolved in the JCBA?

Oh? "more than likely"? Well...No worries at all then! It's equally "likely" that a JCBA should be finished by,...well...when? No matter, I must suppose, since in the meantime management won't at all abuse the MOU language in any way, being the wonderful people they've established themselves to be. How foolish of me to have even the slightest concerns here.

Wow! "more than likely resolved" is the ruling "logic"? Seriously? Again: If you've been sitting at any table for 30 minutes and don't know who the sucker is....well/etc.

 

[PullUp]

Here's a scenario two years from now. JCBA negotiations, J. Glass in command for the new AA.
"Sorry guys, we really overestimated our revenue stream. You'll have to come up with concessions worth 1 billion, and take a 50% pay cut so the company can survive. We're sorry, but the finance people in NYC will cut off our credit lines if we don't do this."
Sound familiar?
What you give up today will not be there to recover tomorrow.
NO.

 

[dca319]

So what are your plans guys to get more. If you were on the NAC, what would you do? I've heard complaining but no plan of action. So lets hear it. Ciabattoni's plan didn't go over so well so I'd like to hear your ideas.

 

[jetjok1]

What is it again you're thinking you have that'll get you more?

I truly believe that through all the bantering back and forth, the only way we have a chance to fight this management down the road is to be 14k strong. Pretty hard to divide the big number vs 5k here and 6k there and 3k somewhere else. Also, if you think the NAC should have gotten better, I agree to a point. I think it's the best THIS NAC could do. Ladies and gentlemen, it's to late to change the guard.......should have thought of that sooner. This last minute " garbage news releases" to divide us hasn't worked for me. I voted. I said this since day one even in the west/east fight.........we need to become one and stay focused on the real enemy...........DUI Doug and his band of thieves!

As a side note........being the biggest airline does nothing for me. I still have, and will never have, any respect for this trash outfit. Having the American name in front of it.......changes nothing.......it's still the same players!!

 

[cleardirect]

I don't "think" anything, with regard to the SLI with APA, I know that USAPA will be seeking a DOH methodology with C&R's (fences). How the inevitable (mandated by the MOU process) outcome of the negotiation and or arbitration turns out, is yet to be determined and you are free to "conjure up" anything you want to believe about the result. Just keep in mind that anyone who say's they "know" what the result is eventually going to be is well.......delusional.

Furthermore, from the POR forward (which is when the SLI process begins) LOA93 pay rates will be a thing of the past and our pay going foreword throughout the SLI process will be equal to APAs'.


seajay

Really!

When ALPA told the east pilots they "know" it was going to be DOH. That did not happen. Then usapa came along and they "know" that Nicolau got it wrong and that the "gold standard" is DOH and Seham knew that he was going to throw out arbitration and the result of seniority integration was going to be DOH. Are you saying that east pilots have not conjured up a result?

This is getting interesting. East pilots now figuring out that all the arguments you guys have made over the years are now backfiring on you.

Better be careful. The APA may file a Rico suit soon.

 

[EastUS1]

How about the east & west get an equal contribution to retirement funding that the AA pilots will receive annually to maintain their frozen pension fund?

Naaah! Who'd want to be treated as anything even close to equals here? Why...the very nerve of even suggesting such a thing!