Delta adding LAX-DEN extra LAX-BOS

[topDawg]

Article from Airways News on DL at LAX:

http://airwaysnews.com/blog/2015/11/16/delta-adds-los-angeles-denver-are-there-more-opportunities-to-grow-at-lax/

The grapevine says DL only has a handful of domestics left they want to add. ORD/IAH/IAD/ABQ and RNO. BWI/OKC also wouldn't shock me. (ABQ/RNO/IAD/OKC/BWI would probably be 1-2x each at most. ORD/IAH are the only two that would get meaningful frequency) The new focus is going to be less about adding destinations and more about big planes and more frequency.    
 
ELP would likely go to SLC if it gets a flight out west. 
 
 
Internationally however there are plenty of places DL is looking at, but it will have to wait on A350s or used widebodies. They might be able to add something like a PEK or ICN flight with the available fleet but the international fleet is stretched pretty far.  

 

[commavia]

So with this it is very clear Delta is pulling out of LAX.     

 
Sarcasm aside, what I think is "very clear" is that Delta absolutely wants to displace United and be, as the press release said, the "airline of choice for Angelenos" - along with AA.  Realistically, fanboy hysterics aside, I think even Delta recognizes that its unlikely at this point to displace AA from the #1 spot at LAX - if for no other reason than that under just about any plausible scenario where Delta stays where it is or moves to the north side, it is still not going to pass AA in terms of gate control.  Nonetheless, Delta can certainly be a very strong player in the market, and further widen its lead relative to United.
 

If jetBlue follows through on the rumoured Mint service from BOS to LAX and SFO, the real question is whether AA, DL and UA are able to retain their high-value customers on the BOS transcons when B6 is offering the lie-flat seats? More than a decade ago, AA flew 3-class transcon 767s from BOS to LAX and SFO.

 
I continue to believe that when - not if - JetBlue puts Mint on LAX-BOS, AA's response very well could be the upgraded international 757s - those aircraft would introduce very little net additional capacity into the market but would allow AA to offer a substantially upgraded premium product (which is really all that competing with Mint would be about, anyway).
 

The grapevine says DL only has a handful of domestics left they want to add. ORD/IAH/IAD/ABQ and RNO.

 
Indeed.  Again, given that Delta likely realistically only has so much incremental capacity it can add even if it wants to, I suspect Delta will prioritize filling some of the gaping holes in the LAX network like CHI/HOU/WAS.
 

The new focus is going to be less about adding destinations and more about big planes and more frequency.

 
This would seem to comport with Delta management's comments some months back about the coming "completion" of the "schedule build-out" at LAX.
 

Internationally however there are plenty of places DL is looking at, but it will have to wait on A350s or used widebodies. They might be able to add something like a PEK or ICN flight with the available fleet but the international fleet is stretched pretty far.  

 
Will be interesting to see how this goes, and if AA beats Delta to the punch ...

 

[topDawg]

Sarcasm aside, what I think is "very clear" is that Delta absolutely wants to displace United and be, as the press release said, the "airline of choice for Angelenos" - along with AA.  Realistically, fanboy hysterics aside, I think even Delta recognizes that its unlikely at this point to displace AA from the #1 spot at LAX - if for no other reason than that under just about any plausible scenario where Delta stays where it is or moves to the north side, it is still not going to pass AA in terms of gate control.  Nonetheless, Delta can certainly be a very strong player in the market, and further widen its lead relative to United.

 Fanboy pissing contests aside, DL simply doesn't want or need to be as large in LA as American is. Delta has three western hubs and of those SLC and SEA will end up being about 100-150 flights larger than DL at LA. American has the problem of LA is the only option. They have to be very large in LA because if they aren't they simply wont have an Asian gateway on the west coast. DL and UA both have less competitive hubs they can fall back on if LAX becomes to much of a blood bath with high full. 
 
LA is simply running after HVC/corporate marketshare.  
 
AA and DL are both very comparable in destinations, AA having just a few more than DL and both fly to 9 out of the 10 top passengers carried markets from LA (DL missing ORD, AA missing SEA)
 
The number I have heard is 190 flights tops for DL.  
 

I continue to believe that when - not if - JetBlue puts Mint on LAX-BOS, AA's response very well could be the upgraded international 757s - those aircraft would introduce very little net additional capacity into the market but would allow AA to offer a substantially upgraded premium product (which is really all that competing with Mint would be about, anyway).

I think it happens only if the legacies see it is hurting them in the corporate market. LAX-BOS is a blood bath and even tossing 321Ts at the market probably isn't going to cause AA's average fare to jump very high. 
 

Indeed.  Again, given that Delta likely realistically only has so much incremental capacity it can add even if it wants to, I suspect Delta will prioritize filling some of the gaping holes in the LAX network like CHI/HOU/WAS.

 Management has said they believe 180 flights per day is the limit for T5/6. Thats about 20 flights away. They can easily add all the missing key markets (ORD/IAH/MEX/IAD) and have a little room for some other low frequency flights.
 
Having said that Delta wants and needs more 330/777/350 gates. T5 only has two (and basically closes two other gates if they park 777s at both, you might be able to fit an RJ at the middle end gate but I question it) and two on T6.
As much as some want to think DL is going to end up leaving T5 because LAWA is trying to make sure AA dominants LA and helps them with world domination etc. DL is the one pushing for a move or more gates at T6. (or one other option but IMO more T6 space and the last option are complete pipe dreams) 
 
Oh and DL would love to be able to have AM/VS and VA all under one roof. 
 

This would seem to comport with Delta management's comments some months back about the coming "completion" of the "schedule build-out" at LAX.

Mainline is coming to some of the 76 seater markets. The 319 with the new product is going to be a key in this. Watch Texas and MIA.........  
 

Will be interesting to see how this goes, and if AA beats Delta to the punch ...

IIRC there are 14 frequencies left to China (7 as part of the bilateral and I believe the 7 NRT-PEK frequencies from DL are still (back) in the pool. (but it might only be 7, United might have gotten the exDL frequencies)
 
Having said that if DL or AA ask for the frequencies and the other will probably follow within hours. If there are only 7 and AA gets them DL has the 7 unrestricted frequencies they currently use to NRT-PVG. Wouldn't be shocked at all to see DL let MU completely take NRT-PVG over.    
 
As for ICN i fully expect if AA announces it DL will be right behind them. (I also wouldn't be shocked to see United jump into (or try in the case of PEK) if DL and/or AA try to add ICN/HKG/PEK.) 

 

[MAH4546]

The problem Delta is about to face is that it's likely going to lose use of three gates. The AS gate share deal is up soon, and word is AS is going to share the six gates it let's Delta use with American. Delta shares three gates with AS, so those will become of DL's exclusive use. 
 
Also the plans for AA to takeover T5 are apparently moving pretty fast. DL will likely be under one roof with it's alliance partners on the other side of the airport, but not gain gates. 
 
AA is building up a gate portfolio to build up a 300+ daily operation at LAX by decade's end.  And to say AA doesn't have another hub in the West is nonsense. It does. 
 
There are only seven U.S.-PEK/PVG frequencies for U.S. carriers. Only one of DL/UA/AA can fly the route daily. I do expect AA will be applying for this route shortly, and DL/UA might file competing applications. 

 

[topDawg]

The problem Delta is about to face is that it's likely going to lose use of three gates. The AS gate share deal is up soon, and word is AS is going to share the six gates it let's Delta use with American. Delta shares three gates with AS, so those will become of DL's exclusive use.

DL doesn't use more than 3 gates in T6 generally as it is. It might not be the three gates DL has a direct lease on however.
 

Also the plans for AA to takeover T5 are apparently moving pretty fast. DL will likely be under one roof with it's alliance partners on the other side of the airport, but not gain gates.

 I'll take that bet. 
 

AA is building up a gate portfolio to build up a 300+ daily operation at LAX by decade's end.  And to say AA doesn't have another hub in the West is nonsense. It does.

300+ flights? ha my A$$. I'll take that bet also. 
 
Oh sorry, I forgot, world domination and all that. Soon enough DL/UA and WN will have to leave LA because LAWA will kick them out for more AA space.     
 
As LT says in the Waterboy. "Gentelmen, which brings me to my next point. Don't smoke crack"   

There are only seven U.S.-PEK/PVG frequencies for U.S. carriers. Only one of DL/UA/AA can fly the route daily. I do expect AA will be applying for this route shortly, and DL/UA might file competing applications.

AA only has west coast hub. Unless PHX moved and I missed it.
 
and okay on the China issue. I guess UA got the 7 DL put back in the pool? 

 

[commavia]

300+ flights? ha my A$$. I'll take that bet also. 

 
AA will be over 200 daily departures out of LAX by next summer, and AA will soon have preferential or exclusive access to >30 gates.  I'm not sure why 300 daily flights - at some point a few years down the road, perhaps - is all that unthinkable.
 

AA only has west coast hub. Unless PHX moved and I missed it.

 
And who said otherwise?  Another poster said that AA has more than one hub "in the west."  Like SLC, PHX is not on the "west coast," but is, indeed, "in the west."
 
And I thought we were taking a breather from the ridiculous fanboyism.  Nice while it lasted ...

 

[topDawg]

AA will be over 200 daily departures out of LAX by next summer, and AA will soon have preferential or exclusive access to >30 gates.  I'm not sure why 300 daily flights - at some point a few years down the road, perhaps - is all that unthinkable.

Because no one (that I know of) has done it?  

And you are saying AA is going to run 10 flights per day per gate? 
 
whatever yall say. 

And who said otherwise?  Another poster said that AA has more than one hub "in the west."  Like SLC, PHX is not on the "west coast," but is, indeed, "in the west."

Alright. whatever dude. 
 
Yall are honestly just as annoying as WT. We can have a real conversation about it, or we can't. Quite honestly i can't find a single crap to give if AA has 1 flight or 6 million out of LA. Same goes for Delta. 
All I care about is both airline treating employees right and being profitable. I would prefer to stay in Atlanta. Other than that I have zero craps to give in this mine is bigger than yours game. 
 
Having said that, I said AA has one west COAST option then MAH said something about PHX. So awesome, cool, fanfrickintastic they have a PHX hub. Delta and United have two west COAST options. AA must make LA work, DL can fail at LA and push harder in SEA, Ua can fail in LA and push harder in SFO. AA fails at LAX they are going all the way back to Dallas.
 

And I thought we were taking a breather from the ridiculous fanboyism.  Nice while it lasted ...

Yeah I mean shame on me for not thinking AA is going to take over the world. Terrible person I am.


GMAFB

 

[MAH4546]

DL doesn't use more than 3 gates in T6 generally as it is. It might not be the three gates DL has a direct lease on however.
 
 I'll take that bet. 
 
300+ flights? ha my A$$. I'll take that bet also. 

 
Sure, let's take thsoe bets.
 
AA will have a ~35 gate operations at LAX. It's already going to be at ~230/240 by the end of 2016 without all of its gates in place.
 
And yes, the move of Delta to T2/T3 is very real and moving fast. Delta supports the plan and has agreed in principal. It allows them to be with their alliance partners under one roof. 

 

[LDVAviation]

And you are saying AA is going to run 10 flights per day per gate? 
 
whatever yall say. 

 
 

Management has said they believe 180 flights per day is the limit for T5/6. Thats about 20 flights away. They can easily add all the missing key markets (ORD/IAH/MEX/IAD) and have a little room for some other low frequency flights.

 
... Are you saying that Delta is going to run 11.25 turns per gate?  (180 flights across 16 gates)  You are as duplicitous as WT.
 
 

Having said that Delta wants and needs more 330/777/350 gates. T5 only has two (and basically closes two other gates if they park 777s at both, you might be able to fit an RJ at the middle end gate but I question it) and two on T6.
As much as some want to think DL is going to end up leaving T5 because LAWA is trying to make sure AA dominants LA and helps them with world domination etc. DL is the one pushing for a move or more gates at T6. (or one other option but IMO more T6 space and the last option are complete pipe dreams) 

 
... Seriously, how low on the org chart are you?  Does anyone tell you anything of strategic importance?
 
IORFA has more inside information about AA than you have about Delta.  Read IORFA's latest post.  You may not believe us when we tell you these things, but IORFA got confirmation from Kirby himself.  That post even refutes the notion that Delta would have any chance of getting more T6 gates.

 

[eolesen]

Do you think you could stop comparing people to those who won't be missed?

And while we're at it, how about also knocking down the puffery a few notches, eh?


Technically, DL only has one west coast hub/gateway -- LAX. SEA is ~100 miles inland.

 

[topDawg]

... Are you saying that Delta is going to run 11.25 turns per gate?  (180 flights across 16 gates)  You are as duplicitous as WT.

AA has always typically had lower utilization than DL/UA and obviously WN per gate.
Having said that, the 180 number is right from management so talk to them about it. Seems high to me, but good for ACS out in LA if they can do it.
 
 
 

... Seriously, how low on the org chart are you?  Does anyone tell you anything of strategic importance?
 
IORFA has more inside information about AA than you have about Delta.  Read IORFA's latest post.  You may not believe us when we tell you these things, but IORFA got confirmation from Kirby himself.  That post even refutes the notion that Delta would have any chance of getting more T6 gates.

Boy reading is hard for you isn't it?
I believe I said in that post I believe anything but T2/3 is a pipe dream.

The last time management at Delta was asked about T2/3 they said it, more T6 space and one other option (didn't specify but I have a pretty good idea what it is) are all being looked at. IIRC this was not long after the new check in was opened up. (the Delta One check in that is)

 

[topDawg]

 
Sure, let's take thsoe bets.
 
AA will have a ~35 gate operations at LAX. It's already going to be at ~230/240 by the end of 2016 without all of its gates in place.
 
And yes, the move of Delta to T2/T3 is very real and moving fast. Delta supports the plan and has agreed in principal. It allows them to be with their alliance partners under one roof. 

fine
5 bucks for each bet. Donate to your favorite charity.
 
and I am showing AA being at just at 200 flights (peak) in the summer, so you are saying they are going to add 30 to 40 flights for winter 16? 

 

[MAH4546]

 
 I'll take that bet. 
 
 

 
Delta has signed an LOI to move to T2/T3.
 
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/delta-inks-deal-for-major-terminal-move-at-lax-420660/
 
I expect will hear about AA's LOI to takeover T5 shortly.

 

[LDVAviation]

 
Delta has signed an LOI to move to T2/T3.
 
https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/delta-inks-deal-for-major-terminal-move-at-lax-420660/
 
I expect will hear about AA's LOI to takeover T5 shortly.

 
Doesn't the dog owe you 5 dollars for each bet?
 
(Apparently, Richard doesn't trust him with much information or much money.)

 

[topDawg]

 
Doesn't the dog owe you 5 dollars for each bet?
 
(Apparently, Richard doesn't trust him with much information or much money.)

Boy for someone who likes to talk so much crap about education and universities you prove to me more and more you went to a crap school. Your reading and comprehension skills are pretty piss poor.
 
First the bets were AA would be at 300+ flights a day and AA would completely take over Terminal 5. None of which have happened.
Second you need to learn how a bet works. MAH (and you) as normal, pick up an employee rumor drive by post it over here then run away. MAH never agreed to either bet. I never said DL wasn't moving to T2/3.I said (at the time) isn't wasn't a done deal and technically it still isn't a done deal. 
Finally, again, reading and comprehension skills. I said 5 bucks per bet to charity. Do you know what a charity is? or are you saying MAH is a charity? 
 
If you read all of this try not to hurt your head figuring out what it all means. 
 
Oh and its dawg, not dog.