Delta Air Lines to Build Heavy Maintenance Facility in Queretaro, Mexico

[Kev3188]

They have, but only when stations dipped below a specific threshold (avg. 7 departures/daily) noted in their CBA. In PDX's case, they were outsourced years ago, then after the QQ & TW acquisitions, were way over, so the ramp was insourced again. As ex- QQ & TW routes were pruned away, they were right on the bubble for awhile. Then, at one point, the red-eye to DFW was dropped for just long enough to get under the annual flight number, and they were gone again. That happened in (I think?) 2004. ATS handled them for awhile, then Eagle (!) of all people. The above wing agents have always been M/L, but are now slated to be outsourced as well, as part of the restructuring. Not sure who's going to pick up the work.

Apropos of nothing: The FSC's used to put on a killer breakfast in their breakroom, with all proceeds funding their employee parties. It became so popular, you couldn't find a place to fall down. Eventually, the revenue dip for the vendors in the food court became noticeable enough that the Port had it shut down...

 

[737823]

Kev, truthfully do people see it as a possibility DL will outsource large hubs like ATL, DTW, MSP, SLC, etc at least partially? What about larger non-hub stations like BOS or MCO? I can understand being concerned about some stations but have a very hard time believing DL would get by outsourcing their largest hub in their hometown.

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

Sorry to be remedial on something from 20+ years back but can someone enlighten me on leadership 7.5 at DL?

Is this a good summary?





http://www.shrm.org/...inal Online.pdf

Josh

WT will tell you that 7.5 is irrelevant, since it happened so long ago, but the short version is a complete wiping out of most small stations, and a total reversal of DL's founding culture & principles. Outsourcing became the rule, instead of the exception.

BTW, in the paper, it notes this:

"Non-union status allowed for flexible work rules that let employees react to any situation and get the job done."

That's never come back.

ACS at DL might still be non union, but that flexibility to get the job done doesn't exist. NW might've been heavily unionized, but I guarantee you we had MUCH more autonomy (and empowerment) to get things done than we do now.

BTW, none of my business, but are you a member of SHRM?

 

[737823]

WT will tell you that 7.5 is irrelevant, since it happened so long ago, but the short version is a complete wiping out of most small stations, and a total reversal of DL's founding culture & principles. Outsourcing became the rule, instead of the exception.

BTW, in the paper, it notes this:

"Non-union status allowed for flexible work rules that let employees react to any situation and get the job done."

That's never come back.

ACS at DL might still be non union, but that flexibility to get the job done doesn't exist. NW might've been heavily unionized, but I guarantee you we had MUCH more autonomy (and empowerment) to get things done than we do now.

BTW, none of my business, but are you a member of SHRM?

No problem for you to ask, I simply did a Google search for "Delta Leadership 7.5" and it was one of the search results that looked reasonable.

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

Kev, truthfully do people see it as a possibility DL will outsource large hubs like ATL, DTW, MSP, SLC, etc at least partially? What about larger non-hub stations like BOS or MCO? I can understand being concerned about some stations but have a very hard time believing DL would get by outsourcing their largest hub in their hometown.

Josh

Yes they do.

"Partial" outsourcing already happens in DTW & MSP. MCO had Comair handling a large portion of flights until the pull down of the mini hub there. DFW was a hub, and of course was outsourced as part of Operation Clockwork (or whatever it was called). LGA has M/L workers working part of the operation w/the Shuttle vendored out. JFK has parts of the operation outsourced as well. I agree with you that ATL would likely be the last to see large portions farmed out (though DGS does have a significant presence there), but no one's immune....

 

[Kev3188]

No problem for you to ask, I simply did a Google search for "Delta Leadership 7.5" and it was one of the search results that looked reasonable.

Josh

Ah. Makes sense.

BTW, one point of clarification regarding AA's flight threshold. Some stations were still staffed, even though they were below the limit due to FSC's having system protection (a sort of grandfathering in, if you will. NW had the same thing). PDX didn't have any of those employees.

 

[737823]

Yes they do.

"Partial" outsourcing already happens in DTW & MSP. MCO had Comair handling a large portion of flights until the pull down of the mini hub there. DFW was a hub, and of course was outsourced as part of Operation Clockwork (or whatever it was called). LGA has M/L workers working part of the operation w/the Shuttle vendored out. JFK has parts of the operation outsourced as well. I agree with you that ATL would likely be the last to see large portions farmed out (though DGS does have a significant presence there), but no one's immune....

Not disputing what you wrote but for LGA Shuttle are you referring to Marine Terminal ramp only? Pretty sure the gate agents are mainline (or appeared to be at least). I too find it compelling though, they wouldn't go to the trouble and expense of having a third party come in to handle a portion of the LGA operation they must intend to increase the contract work over time. Did the switch take place in June when the Shuttle went from 319s to E75s? On an unrelated note, apparently bags are NOT transferred from Marine to terminals C/D, passengers must exit security, reclaim and recheck their bags in the appropriate terminal for their connecting flight. Only flights to BOS/DCA/ORD designated as Shuttle flights leave from Marine and can be transferred. On my recent flight they made a few announcements to this effect. If DL is making LGA a hub, they really ought to transfer the bags and provide an airside shuttle bus to C/D.

It probably wouldn't bode well for DL to have the AJC writing a lengthy article about outsourcing at Hartsfield-Jackson. Also, RR technically is NOT outsourcing, do some consider it outsourcing?

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

Yes, ramp @ the MAT... It's been that way since before the shift away from M/L A/C...

Many people consider the RR program at least a de facto outsourcing. The company disagrees, of course...

 

[Kev3188]

The thought of writing about an ATL outsourcing would likely make Kelly Yamonouchi's (sp?) head explode.

 

[Kev3188]

The thought of writing about an ATL outsourcing would likely make Kelly Yamonouchi's (sp?) head explode.

 

[737823]

Yes, ramp @ the MAT... It's been that way since before the shift away from M/L A/C...

Many people consider the RR program at least a de facto outsourcing. The company disagrees, of course...

I can see both sides of it. It provides the company a cost savings while keeping workers on company payroll which gives DL more control and provides a more consistent and streamlined operation. Think of it this way with RR you have some FT/PT benefited employees but with an outsourced station everyone is gone. Not saying that will make anyone feel differently but from an employee perspective I'm sure a mixed RR station is better than an outsourced station. Btw how much insourcing of ground does DL do? I know in BOS they handle the three daily AS flights, probably the same at other stations.

Also do large overseas stations specifically AMS, CDG, and NRT have all mainline employees? Pretty sure AA at LHR is all mainline but that is changing with the restructuring.

Josh

 

[Kev3188]

It's marginally better than a fully outsourced station (of which there are plenty, of course). The biggest issue is that as benefitted positions are vacated, they are being replaced with Ready Reserves. Any net growth in a station's numbers is achieved the same way.

DL does a decent amount of ground handling for other carriers. I'd like to see more. I'm going off memory here, but for AS, he handle them in:

BOS/AUS/DFW/EWR/HNL/IAH/MSP/STL/TUS. Maybe SAT as well?

Some of those are above wing only, and some are above & below both.

We also do F9 in:

FNT, MSN, and PIT. IIRC, PIT is above & below wing. FNT & MSN are below only.

There are others as well (HA is one in a couple places), but w/o looking, I'm not sure which ones...

In Asia, there are a lot of M/L employees- certainly NRT jumps to mind. No ramp, though. Same story with Latin America/The Caribbean (SJU being an exception).

In Europe, there aren't as many, if any at all, outside of a station manager. Pretty sure there aren't any in CDG, & AMS was handled by KL for NW. Not sure who does it now. LGW was outsourced a long time before the merger, and I have no clue about LHR...

 

[topDawg]

I can answer these as someone that doesn't work in the industry but knows from reading these forums and being a frequent traveler:



The IAM supported, facilitated, and encouraged RR at Hawaiian Airlines. Tim has posted about it before but here is the link to their CBA articles 26.2-26.8. To boot RRs do not count toward the PT cap, must be full dues paying IAM members, receive no benefits besides flight passes, and top out at $10/hour.

http://www.iam141.or...014clerical.pdf

So yes, at least one unionized carrier has RR. Also, how much better is UAL's part time cross training ramp/CS that tops out $10.73/hour than RR?



Hasn't AA been contracting out certain cities long before the 11/29/2011 filing? PDX as an examples, sees all AA mainline but has had third party handling for years. I'm sure there are more. I know HPN has contracted workers and a few years back was mainline 738s and CRJs to ORD, now all E145s but was contracted out with mainline.

Josh

Just wanted to note two things.
1) the UAL thing. Is it better than RR? well the question is what do they get other than the $10 an hour. If they get days off, 401K, flight bens, heath care? then hell yes. If its just flight bens and pay...then one would have to look at what the move up is like. IE is it like RR where, thats what youll do forever(unless your in ATL) or do they flow up fairly easy?
2) the second question was how many have dumped a hub, the 2nd largest to complete outsourced below wing?
AA (and all union carriers) have SCOPE that allows some station to be contracted out. IIRC AA's was 10 flights a day or something like that. Delta, however has cities like RDU as DGS that would never float at UAL or AMR.....with or without BK. WT things that rampers should be happy about this though...which is the main problem.

 

[topDawg]

But your peers weren't convinced right after the merger - while NW and DL employees were still fenced - that unionization was necessary so how do you think they are going to vote for a union now that they are getting pay raises and profit sharing that far eclipses what most of their peers at other legacy airlines are receiving? You can talk about the inequalities in the workplace at DL all day long but your peers are more interested in keeping those pay raises and profit sharing checks coming...they are not about to mess w/ the formula that is rewarding them better than their peers.

The unions that would have to foot the bill for another contest w/ DL mgmt aren't the least bit excited about flushing $100s of thousands of dollars down a campaign in which the odds are so heavily stacked against the unions.

and now this: The AFA is going to get the TWU to help organize DL FA's.... don't suppose DL employees will notice all the TWU jobs that are being cut at AA, do you?

http://www.bizjourna....html?ana=yfcpc

So, yeah, Kevin, you and Dawg are non-union.

And when you and a simple minority of your peers decide that you really want to follow the failed labor-mgmt model that has left more of your peers at other airlines employed and those that remain with lower salaries than DL employees, then I'll be more than happy to acknowledge that you were right.....

but that's about as likely to happen as for me to wake up tomorrow morning and see snow.

two things.
Good for you. The AFL-CIO unions are worthless. I have posted this tons of times. I'm pro APA/APFA and AMFA. I think the FAs would be completely foolish to join anything to do with the TWU or AFA-CWA. I grew up in a CWA house.....had a mother who worked for....and has a current family member...with AT&T/Bellsouth/southern Bell.....and the CWA was worthless years ago and is completely worthless now.
other thing. how many TWU FA jobs have been lost at AA again....oh wait. Yeah apples to apples please....


oh and i want to add...the reason the TWU and AFA are doing a joint union. During the last run they would have had the votes with the write ins. Once this election happens go ahead to expect to be laying on the floor crying.....yet another evil terrible union will "take over"

 

[topDawg]

IOW, don't admit that WT is right.

A union that chose to walk off the job only to be replaced by mgmt would be considered anything but a failure?

Two things. For real....stupid and a very low blow.
part two....me thinks your being bad on the net....something tells me you wouldn't say this to an ex NWA AMTs face.....