Delta Air Offers Buyouts to Trim Jobs Amid 4% Capacity Cut

[eolesen]

And so Project Visine continues...

 

[Kev3188]

subsidized because the retiree medical follows the PMNW contracts? If so, then heck yes... that could be worth a fortune over a lifetime.

Yes. Retiree medical is covered in the IAM and AFA CBA's. NW has it, DL doesn't.

And so Project Visine continues...

Sad but true.

 

[WorldTraveler]

And so Project Visine continues...

Though it's probably not anyone at DL or PMNW that is crying.

Yes. Retiree medical is covered in the IAM and AFA CBA's. NW has it, DL doesn't.

I think I just upped my number of potential takers for DL's packages by close to 1000.
Maybe the IAM and AFA are asking the NMB to delay the process of deciding representation to allow this package to close out?
Or do you suppose that once the representation elections are settled, the effective date for their payroll conversion will be moved back to the date of the vote? Let's see... DL could pay retroactive pay raises or retiree medical to early outters? Which shall it be?

 

[eolesen]

Crying?? Seriously?

There's something just a little ironic in a self-proclaimed expert hiding behind the burka of anonymity and choosing to use my full name gratuitously for no other purpose than to try and increase my Google search hits and "reveal me for the type of person I really am"... Keep it up. I just got a check from Google for ad revenue, and this can only help.

The funny part is that I'm not even sure you knew what Project Visine was without having had to ask someone or Google it...

 

[WorldTraveler]

the simple fact is that DL is offering the early packages as incerntives for people to leave. They have been very successful in the past and DL has indeed offered retiree health subsidies to its own employees help increase the "take rate".
For you to assert that the early out packages are anything other than a tool to reduce headcount at a time when DL is reponsibly reducing capacity is erroneous. To tryt to characterize them as a tool that DL is using to attempt to reduce the number of PMNW people is beyond disgusting.
Kev is completely right that there will be a number of people that will find the package attractive, esp. if it means moving up by a year or two that some PMNW people decide to retire. Reducing healthcare costs in this day and age is a huge benefit.
.
And unlike other compAAnies that are constantly embroiled in employee discontent, DL employees manage to be fairly happy at what they have. Obviously, there are alot of PMNW people who are going through a downturn for the first time under DL and remain skeptical until they emerge but the simple fact is that DL has managed to navigate downturns far better than the network industry as a whole (fewer involuntary layoffs, more responsive to the industry environment) while returning to their growth mode with new, lower cost new hires when the growth cycle starts, allowing DL to keep its costs down. Most DL employees appreciate the fact that DL doesn't have to resort to the hostile environment that exists at some AAirlines and still accomplish what DL needs to do to remain a viable company.
.
We also don't know yet where the capacity is going to be deployed for the winter. Much of the capacity will be right back where it is now next winter and not all of it will go the desert for the winter. There will be alot of growth to warm weather destinations and Latin America not just for DL but for all carriers...
.
having only one piece of the puzzle right now makes announcements like this ripe for people like you who feed on fear and inaccurate and incomplete information... of course it is yet one more threat to AA's market dominance in the one remaining region of the world.
.
Enjoy your check... hope your other business grows.... If you can do something right, let the people pay for it.
If you don't want your full name used, then don't create your username using elements of it and disclosing the rest... while pushing your consultancy.
You ARE the minority of people in any chat forum - this one included - who use elements of their full name. Others obviously don't want to disclose their identity publicly or attempt to use chat forums as an advertising forum.
Since you do both, then you have to live with the reality that your name and reputation are tied to what you write.
.
I'll be in Chicagoland in August. How about we get together for a drink? Send your contact info (I'm a big enough boy to not block people's PMs to me)... I'll look forward to seeing you.

 

[eolesen]

You're obviously right, Tim. The buyouts aren't directly targeted at the red headed step children.

Trying to argue that this is just DL being altruistic is silly. Sure, they're going to look for volunteers first. Every sane HR manager would do likewise.

But when it comes to the involuntary cuts, it doesn't take an academic to read between the lines.

The fully staffed field locations which have had a big red target on them ever since the union votes started. Those stations don't meet DL's staffing model. And they no longer have the constraints of a union contract to deal with.

That's not fear or inaccuracy. It's fact. Perhaps a fact that you don't want to admit, given some of the kum-bay-yah positions taken up until now regarding promises that nobody would lose their job as a result of the merger.

Of course people are skeptical. It's because anyone who has been around has heard that same promise over and over. With very rare exception, Employee Day Two has always turned out to be a far different reality than Employee Day One.

 

[WorldTraveler]

You're obviously right, Tim. The buyouts aren't directly targeted at the red headed step children.

Trying to argue that this is just DL being altruistic is silly. Sure, they're going to look for volunteers first. Every sane HR manager would do likewise.

But when it comes to the involuntary cuts, it doesn't take an academic to read between the lines.

The fully staffed field locations which have had a big red target on them ever since the union votes started. Those stations don't meet DL's staffing model. And they no longer have the constraints of a union contract to deal with.

That's not fear or inaccuracy. It's fact. Perhaps a fact that you don't want to admit, given some of the kum-bay-yah positions taken up until now regarding promises that nobody would lose their job as a result of the merger.

Of course people are skeptical. It's because anyone who has been around has heard that same promise over and over. With very rare exception, Employee Day Two has always turned out to be a far different reality than Employee Day One.

no, it's not a fact. You and others believed from the beginning of this merger that DL would ultimately outsource many small stations and that rumor has persisted for years despite the fact that DL has never given any indication that it is true. In fact, DL has repeatedly said that they didn't have plans to outsource small stations. The fact that DL hasn't broken its word just busts your chops.
Problem with your theory is that DL has a tool available to it now that it didn't have when it outsourced most of its small stations years ago and that is the use of ready reserves. I am fully aware that the unions don't like the practice but it does allow DL to staff small stations with its own employees at costs that are comparable to if not even lower than outsourced employees. Further, DL has the ability to reduce staffing levels at some stations without closing the station fully to mainline employees.
Yes, there are stations that will need to be trimmed - but that trimming could very well also be coming to outsourced stations - and it could be even moreso for other airlines, including UA/CO where they are integrating their operations at a time when they weren't able to grow to use the increased efficiencies which DL had as a result of its merger. But the notion that DL mainline employee staffing is too expensive for other than large hubs is flat out wrong.
There are also a lot of "small stations" that are in fact decent sized medium stations where DL has increased its market share and continues to increase station efficiencies as it adds new flights, including as a part of the LGA/DCA slot deal.
Kev can give us an updated list of non-hub mainline cities but I doubt very seriously that you would see that closing a station to mainline employees and then turning around and hiring outsourced employees would bring the costs down - unless the flight activity at those cities is dramatically changing both in the number of flights and the makeup of those flights (mainline vs. RJ).
What DL has - and what other network carriers would love to have - is the ability to use various types of staffing models at the COMPANY's choice, not the unions who want to impose negotated inflexible staffing models on the operation.
.
Despite what you want to believe, DL doesn't and hasn't singled out one employee group from any merger for retalitation.... which is probably why the vast majority of DL employees chose not to seek union representation... and they were joined by a number of PMNW employees. The fact that former Western and Pan Am employees are just as prevalent today as they were when those mergers/acquisitions occurred shows quite well that DL is able to integrate various employee groups. Can I tell the difference between PMNW crews and operations? Sure I can.... but I can also tell the difference with PMWA and PMPA crews even years after those events. Unlike other carriers, DL isn't afraid to allow people to carry their culture and personality with them. And I would add that the fact that DL has embraced alot of NW procedures (a number of in-flight procedures are more like NW's than DL's) shows that DL respects NW as being a well run company that did in fact do a lot of things quite well - and thus there is no need to toss out those employees or the way they worked. Too bad other airlines didn't see their acquired operations in the same light.
Unlike AAirlines that have acquired other airlines and then proceeded to staple those employees at the bottom of the seniority list and then layoff the majority of them, DL has integrated employees from its mergers and acquisitions just as if they are their own employees.
.
That isn't pie in the sky, salute-ma-Delta thinking. That is the simple fact. And the fact that DL and NW employees decided 8 or 9 times that they didn't want a union speaks volumes about the fact that they really do believe DL does as good of a job of taking care of them as any other airline can do in a highly turbulent industry.
.
So, no, Eric Olesen, your "facts" are nothing than 3 year old regurgitations of rumors that haven't come true at all. There have been no layoffs involving any groups of employees since the merger that I know of other than the shutdown of the cargo division which was handled in accordance with the contracts in place (and which are still in place).
Your "facts" are nothing more than fear mongering and attempts to try to insert what you see at other AAirlines into the culture of DL, when in fact, DL has done a far better job than its network carrier peers of adjusting to changes in the industry environment and of minimizing the impact of that change on its employees.
.
Pretending to be an industry "expert" and not being able to accurately represent the real facts, instead inserting your own opinions, is precisely why some of us want to make very certain that your professional reputation, Eric Olesen, is well attached to the reckless comments that you post.
If search engines help shine light on what you do, then more power to them.
.
If you want the freedom to spout your opinions without affecting your professional reputation, select a different username and don't use this forum to advertise your consultancy.

 

[Kev3188]

Kev can give us an updated list of non-hub mainline cities

MSP
DTW
MEM
HNL
IND
IAD
LGA
PDX
ORD
JFK
LAX
ANC
MCO
PHX
MKE
TPA
DCA
DFW
LAS
BNA
SEA
BWI
ATL
MSN
BOS
MDW
EWR
STL
MCI
CMH
DEN
RSW
GRR
FLL
PHL
GRB
SFO
FNT
IAH
MSY

 

[WorldTraveler]

MSP
DTW
MEM
.
.
.

obviously schedules for the fall are still in process but the majority of these markets do not show substantial changes in capacity based on current schedules.
Sep is typically a slow month and DL aggressively pulls down so perhaps the bigger indicator is what will come back after Sept.. esp. into the winter when typically north-south leisure travel is what drives an increase in domestic travel during the winter.

.
Kev,
Given that a fence still exists around solely PMNW ramp stations and the rest of the DL system, what are the provisions under the contract should DL decide not to keep a PMNW station? Presumably PMNW rampers would be leveled only into PMNW positions or laid off? And would that layoffs of PMNW employees or closures of PMNW stations be considered a violation of the laboratory conditions if DL closed PMNW stations but not PMDL stations... at least before a final decision is made?
.
Even after that and if laboratory conditions no longer are necessary after a vote, DL surely realizes that turning around and closing multiple PMNW stations is like asking for a new ramp vote - and passenger service if they are affected - with much greater expectations of the union winning.
.
Given the options at DL's disposal, I still it doubtful that DL will close any stations unless there are dramatic cuts and even then they might be able to accomplish all they need by reducing the headcount or reducing positions to part-time/ready reserve status.
.
Even of the int'l cuts that have been made public, the majority appear to be seasonal.. unless there are fundamental changes in DL's network, it would appear that headcount reductions also will be temporary and that might entirely be possible thru the voluntary programs.

 

[Kev3188]

Kev,
Given that a fence still exists around solely PMNW ramp stations and the rest of the DL system, what are the provisions under the contract should DL decide not to keep a PMNW station? Presumably PMNW rampers would be leveled only into PMNW positions or laid off? And would that layoffs of PMNW employees or closures of PMNW stations be considered a violation of the laboratory conditions if DL closed PMNW stations but not PMDL stations... at least before a final decision is made?

There is no fence. PMDL people can bid into what were traditionally NW stations, but the reverse is not true. Obviously, both can bid into a station where both had a presence prior to the merger. DL claims that open positions at any given point willed be filled 50/50 from each "side," but that has absolutely not been the case. Unfortunately, it's another example of the theory espoused being quite different from the theory in use.

Under our CBA, if you're laid off, you can exercise your seniority anywhere on the (PMNW) system you can hold. All 40 stations I listed are "all or nothing." There is no mixing and matching of M/L above wing, and farmed out ramp like at DL. There are also no more cross-utilized (4 hour rule) stations.

All the ones I listed are obviously covered. Some no longer meet the flight threshold required (actually, a few haven't for a long time-even prior to the merger). No they cannot close the ones that still meet the flight levels required.

 

[Kev3188]

(Dupe)

 

[WorldTraveler]

There is no fence. PMDL people can bid into what were traditionally NW stations, but the reverse is not true. Obviously, both can bid into a station where both had a presence prior to the merger. DL claims that open positions at any given point willed be filled 50/50 from each "side," but that has absolutely not been the case. Unfortunately, it's another example of the theory espoused being quite different from the theory in use.

Under our CBA, if you're laid off, you can exercise your seniority anywhere on the (PMNW) system you can hold. All 40 stations I listed are "all or nothing." There is no mixing and matching of M/L above wing, and farmed out ramp like at DL. There are also no more cross-utilized (4 hour rule) stations.

All the ones I listed are obviously covered. Some no longer meet the flight threshold required (actually, a few haven't for a long time-even prior to the merger). No they cannot close the ones that still meet the flight levels required.

interesting to hear that the fences between workgroups are falling.. .I guess in-flight is the only remaining "hard" fence in that DL and PMNW FAs cannot work the same flight.... correct?
I'm not surprised that DL is making the fence somewhat like the Berlin Wall... works one way but not so much the other. Guess that the message is that PMNW members will be held to what they signed but won't enjoy anything else if there is any good to be had.
.
I would presume that DL could have used the language of the CBA to close some stations if it wanted to without violating the contract?
.
I would also presume that DL decided they don't need either to have people work AW and BW in the same station since DL can create schedules that allow for the flight schedule of each stations since apparently DL's minimums for RRs are quite a bit less than what the IAM-NW CBA allowed... ?
.
All of this is good to review and understand - it's been a while since we've talked about the specifics of ACS on here...but I think that several factors will serve to limit involuntary furloughs on DL US based frontline stations.
1. The majority of DL's capacity cuts are coming on int'l flights where the impact to ACS is less than it is for In-Flight and where there are likely contract employees on the foreign end of the flight (DL largely contracts out PMDL int'l cities).
2. There will likely be more than enough volunteers for voluntary programs, both retirees and early outs. I believe the largest DL voluntary program in the past decade had over 4500 volunteers which at the time was more than 10% of the non-pilot workforce; some were alot smaller but combined DL likely had more than 10,000 people leave the company during the decade - what then would have been close to 20% of the workforce. 4000 people represents a bit more than 5% of the workforce today and if similar numbers take this program, that is probably more than enough to offset any involuntary reductions. Pilots and mechanics have lower participation rates in voluntary programs. In-Flight has one of the highest participation rates, including leaves of absence.
3. Airplanes are flying factories so airlines can move their "production" around the world as the market dictates. While the US-Europe market will be heavily affected this winter by cuts, there will be opportunities to fly elsewhere.. crews can "easily" follow the plane while ground staff....

I still don't see that there will be much involuntary impact if any at DL from these cuts..... but things can always change.

Keep us posted, Kev, if you hear info on "take rates" for these programs.

 

[Kev3188]

interesting to hear that the fences between workgroups are falling.. .I guess in-flight is the only remaining "hard" fence in that DL and PMNW FAs cannot work the same flight.... correct?

AFAIK, yes.

I'm not surprised that DL is making the fence somewhat like the Berlin Wall... works one way but not so much the other. Guess that the message is that PMNW members will be held to what they signed but won't enjoy anything else if there is any good to be had.

... Or that some employees are more equal than other employees...
.

I would presume that DL could have used the language of the CBA to close some stations if it wanted to without violating the contract?

Yes, but that would run counter to their constant mantra of "no frontline layoffs."
.

I would also presume that DL decided they don't need either to have people work AW and BW in the same station since DL can create schedules that allow for the flight schedule of each stations since apparently DL's minimums for RRs are quite a bit less than what the IAM-NW CBA allowed... ?

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here, but the minimums for PT employees at PMNW are/were 16 hours a week (832 a year). The minimum for a Ready Reserve-which NW didn't have- is 300. The latter also get no benefits except pass travel.
.

 

[WorldTraveler]

... Or that some employees are more equal than other employees...
.

I believe the message DL mgmt wants PMNW employees to hear is "You have a contract and you will do no worse than what you have in that contract, at least in financial terms (and that other stuff the contract says about telling us how we run our business is doesn't count.)
For PMDL employees, the message DL mgmt wants them to hear is "you don't have a contract so you will disproportionately benefit in any upside that might occur but you will do no worse than the PMNW employees who do have a contract."

I'm not really sure what you're trying to say here, but the minimums for PT employees at PMNW are/were 16 hours a week (832 a year). The minimum for a Ready Reserve-which NW didn't have- is 300. The latter also get no benefits except pass travel.
.

you are reading it right.. I think it says, for better or worse, that DL sees the RR program can be a high flexible, part-time, seasonal AT WILL employment arrangement that allows DL to adjust staffing very easily in situations where the workload will vary greatly within the days of week all the up to the seasons.....
and given that employment remains high and throwing in some pass privileges makes the job a tad more desirable than working in other entry level jobs that would otherwise attract college students, DL can probably succeed with the RR program while not having to worry about the backlash from having contractors. A smaller but core group of DL employees will be permanent with some of them full time w/ benefits. It is a multi-tiered approach to staffing that while shrinking the percentage of full time permanent employees, does give DL alot of flexibility, which is what they need to navigate periods such as this coming winter when capacity does need to come out of the system.
.

Some of these RRs that will go through the winter with little or no work will be happy to come back next summer when things look better for the industry - and some might actually be able to work more hours as some permanent full-time people take packages and DL chooses not to replace that position with another fulltime position.
,
keep us posted on any news aobut how many people take the programs, Kev.

 

[eolesen]

DL has already cancelled CAI and KBP and I don't know what else (I believe there are 4 routes) so it would appear that the "quota" of DL's cuts has already been met. Further, DL already said it would be downgauging TATL flying in favor of increased capacity to Latin America- likely meaning that 764s will sub for 333s which I am betting will start flying to S. America this winter.

This looks like more than just down gauging. Five cities gone from the DL network -- CAI and KPB plus AMM, ARN, and TXL

Reductions in service to four others -- ATL-SVO, PHL-CDG, JFK-CPH and JFK-MAN are axed but served thru other hubs.

Yet the Three Little Pigs remain...

http://bit.ly/iCJhmB