Delta (finally) adds -8 to the CF34 line

[topDawg]

http://www.deltatechops.com/news/view/delta-techops-announces-new-maintenance-repair-and-overhaul-line-for-the-cf

Delta is finally adding OH capability to the CF34 line. This as been an expected move as 50 seaters (and thus the smaller CF34) draw down.
few facts about the CF34 line.
AFAIK it is the only CF34 overhaul line in the US that isn't done by GE.
It is the only engine that is 100% MRO work for Delta. (though most of the engines are from DCI carriers)
Currently they TechOp line does the CF34-3 type.

The CF34-8 is used on the CRJ-700/900 and EMB-170 and 175. (note the E90/95 use the -10)

 

[topDawg]

Ok now for my opinion post.

you could pretty much hear the crying of the (big) babies in the engine shop as soon as John said the BR715s would still be power by the hour from rolls. Once again they somehow save a ton of jobs.

in the mean time, no one is (clearly) crying enough in the hangar and the Mexico project is still going strong. (but hey the AM hangar in GDL is shutting down so yeah. We should be happy about that...or something). Just like in BK, Hangar work (or potential) goes bye-bye and yet the engine shop stays golden. Starting to think some of those guys have some dirt on Delta or something. They save the 219 line then come back and save the CF34 line. must be nice.

Oh and before anyone says it. I would rather be run over before working in a engine shop.

 

[WorldTraveler]

it seems hard to not recognize that DL is moving toward engine work instead of airframe and not surprisingly it is from the airframe folks that the vast majority of complaints on the internet come from.

what is so bad about powerplant work?

are there restrictions on who can do the 715s... is that part of RR's deal to supply the engines?

 

[topDawg]

it seems hard to not recognize that DL is moving toward engine work instead of airframe and not surprisingly it is from the airframe folks that the vast majority of complaints on the internet come from.

what is so bad about powerplant work?

are there restrictions on who can do the 715s... is that part of RR's deal to supply the engines?

Delta works with the engine shop. They could careless with the hangar. Just like in BK the 219 line. They got every chance to save that work. Wall street likes engines. They don't like overhauls because it cost to much. Even if it doesn't cost to much they cost to much. Very few have the balls to stand up to shareholders and tell them how stupid they are. (not trying to be a ass, but its people like you. Its people that, even though AA said tons of times they did overhauls at home for a reason, still said they need to dump them. Finally they got a CEO that did it just because)
As i have said before. I promise it cost Delta more to do them now. In a true figure and an opportunity cost. 88 HMVs took 3 weeks, now they take a month to two months. Thats a lot of flying left on the table, but they had to share the cost of the cuts even though Delta has almost a 15 cent CASM advantage in terms of MX cost. (and that is with the 3nd highest wadges in the country.)

Its kind of like what happened with Eastern. If employers would work with the employees production would be so much better. give the guys a shared reword for getting a HMV done a day early. I promise guys would be in there busting their butts. (because I can tell you, I know plenty of people in 242 at the time who did nothing. Come in, sit on their asses and get paid. 10x once they started talking about cutting. We knew years before it happened they wanted HMVs gone. Tony came into cut, thats what he did best. Did it when he was in Cargo and was going to do it in TechOps. IMO if any MX union would have been somewhat useful TechOps would have gotten one. Plus the engine shop only cared about the engine shop. Not the hangar, not DeltaNorth, not Tampa, not LA, not DWH....and they had done the same damn cutting before....didn't give a s**t about the numbers. Made up some crap, then 4 years later, like magic, the work came back. The Mexico thing is, IMO Tony's last stand. All the vendor changes have basically reconfigured that its costing to much. They can't get near the quality or the production. Just think of the numbers if they would put that Mexico money into TechOps.)

few things
Its low man work. ie, once they start cutting airframe large numbers go away. Engine shop doesn't have near the people the hangar does. Being more junior ends up with a lower quality of life.
Its the same thing every day. Its assembly line work. Hangar we get different work, different types, different airlines etc. (you get different airlines in the engine shop but a Prat PW4000 is a PW4000. Doesn't matter if it is a Delta or FedEx engine. Only big differences is paper work)

no idea on who/what/when will do the BR work. I guess Rolls will do the work in Indy but I really don't know. Maybe ask FL who handles it? AFAIK Delta is just taking over that contract.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I'm not convinced it is stupid for DL to have come to the conclusion that airframe overhauls don't make economic sense. As much as you would like to believe otherwise, DL is a highly analytical and profit-driven enterprise and have been since BK. They just don't do things on a long-term basis that don't make economic sense.

The part that you are missing in the cost of how long it takes to do outsourced airframes is that DL does the majority of them in off-peak periods on used aircraft that have very low ownership.lease costs. There just are not huge costs for DL to have an extra several aircraft in the fleet to support the slower overhaul process.

Perhaps you are right that the work could be done faster and ultimately cheaper if you gave bonuses for how fast the work could be done... but then what kind of company have you created when you have the highest paid non-pilot workgroup getting paid overrides for working even faster? How do you tell FAs and gate agents that they can't get that override because they get their job done in just the amount of time but there is no benefit in getting it done even faster? I don't think you will see airlines go for that kind of speed-driven production. And again it isn't near as necessary as you think when you are talking about older, low ownership cost aircraft - which are a large portion of DL's fleet and will continue to be. The losers are airlines that outsource and it takes that long on fleets of much newer aircraft.

I suspect you are right that DL did not have the choice to end the engine contracts that FL had signed.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I'm not convinced it is stupid for DL to have come to the conclusion that airframe overhauls don't make economic sense. As much as you would like to believe otherwise, DL is a highly analytical and profit-driven enterprise and have been since BK. They just don't do things%

 

[topDawg]

I'm not convinced it is stupid for DL to have come to the conclusion that airframe overhauls don't make economic sense. As much as you would like to believe otherwise, DL is a highly analytical and profit-driven enterprise and have been since BK. They just don't do things on a long-term basis that don't make economic sense. All I can go by is the numbers they told us. Now I can't get into this to much, but ill link the public letter from Tony. Notice the 240M in savings vs the 300M cost to outsource 767/757 OHs

The part that you are missing in the cost of how long it takes to do outsourced airframes is that DL does the majority of them in off-peak periods on used aircraft that have very low ownership.lease costs. There just are not huge costs for DL to have an extra several aircraft in the fleet to support the slower overhaul process. Thats not completely true. Delta, basically, always has an aircraft in HMV from the major types. (M88,757,767) Also the 737 PSV cycles almost always have a ship in a bay(but these are done somewhat in house. The latest round was sent to AAR though)

Perhaps you are right that the work could be done faster and ultimately cheaper if you gave bonuses for how fast the work could be done... but then what kind of company have you created when you have the highest paid non-pilot workgroup getting paid overrides for working even faster? they same way they do it now with payments for things such as D0, mishandled bags etc. How do you tell FAs and gate agents that they can't get that override because they get their job done in just the amount of time but there is no benefit in getting it done even faster? Delta does this now. FAs get points/money for things its impossible for TechOps to get. I don't think you will see airlines go for that kind of speed-driven production. No because they are smart enough to do it. They already do it to a degree. Most airlines have a payout program for DOT statistical numbers. And again it isn't near as necessary as you think when you are talking about older, low ownership cost aircraft - which are a large portion of DL's fleet and will continue to be. The losers are airlines that outsource and it takes that long on fleets of much newer aircraft. that is still a high cost. Delta is paying lease payments (which a good chunk of the 757/M88 fleet are) to have them sit in GDL/SAT then ATL for nearly 2 months per when they could come in ATL for a month. So it the argument is to keep capacity low then work should be done in Atlanta (or any Delta hangar) and the "extra" frames get a trip to VCV. (even if its for a short stay)


I suspect you are right that DL did not have the choice to end the engine contracts that FL had signed.they didn't "have" to stay. Very few contracts would not have some kind of exit clause. The issue here would be ownership of the engines(generally Power by the hours mean RR would own the engines), which would be fixed by a quick and easy lease agreement, and would it be worth it for TechOps to start a BR715 line?
Just like the GE90 engine, Delta could have elected to do them in house or have them done by AF(the, IIRC only other GE90 in the world).
While I think TechOps should be doing every engine overhaul and every airframe overhaul....the first thing to come in house should be the V2500 engine. (followed closely by the CF6s done out of house)

http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/stories/2005/03/28/daily4.html?page=all
It could be poorly worded, but then numbers I have been told basically say Delta pays about the same per aircraft and it takes nearly 2x the time. Also the vendor changes do not speak well for these deals. (like i said, both types are on vendor number three. Mexico will be number four. That is nearly a vendor change every year they have been out)
Finally it was basically said, We don't care about numbers....We have to cut because we are cutting everyone else. Airframe=jobs. Overhauls were the easiest thing to cut because Tony didn't have the balls(or in my honest opinion, the will power or give a damn) to try to save jobs.

 

[700UW]

Delta also had a revenue decline in third party work.

 

[Dalmd88#2]

it seems hard to not recognize that DL is moving toward engine work instead of airframe and not surprisingly it is from the airframe folks that the vast majority of complaints on the internet come from.

what is so bad about powerplant work?

are there restrictions on who can do the 715s... is that part of RR's deal to supply the engines?

The last part first; I think Rolls holds the overhaul work on the BR700 to only Rolls facilities. I think their shop in Montreal is still the only North American authorised shop.

Now for the 'what's so bad about powerplant work?' It's a whole different mentality from the hangar/line work. It is a lot more like a factory assembly line enviroment. Most of the back shops are like that. Many that go behind the wall seem to love it there. After more than 20 years in front of the wall I can not see the allure. Sure crawling around in the heat is a lot harder, but the challenge is still there.

 

[WorldTraveler]

thanks for the perspective. I can understand what you say and your preference.

A few other quick questions.. if you know...

how many DL mechanics work in the engine shops vs. the rest of ATL base tech ops (non engine shop)?

Given that DL seems to be one of most aggressive US airlines at seeking out engine MRO work plus keeping its own inhouse, it would seem that is where they believe DL Tech Ops will go.

I wish you the best and hope you can still find a place to practice "your niche."

 

[topDawg]

thanks for the perspective. I can understand what you say and your preference.

A few other quick questions.. if you know...

how many DL mechanics work in the engine shops vs. the rest of ATL base tech ops (non engine shop)?
good question. ATL overall has like 8,000 of the 11,000 employees.
I would honestly bet that the hangar has more jobs when you just look at the it vs. the engine lines. When compared with all the engine support shops it would be larger.
Given that DL seems to be one of most aggressive US airlines at seeking out engine MRO work plus keeping its own inhouse, it would seem that is where they believe DL Tech Ops will go.
They have been getting aggressive for hangar work because the engine shop doesn't have room for much growth. The have maxed out space wise.
I wish you the best and hope you can still find a place to practice "your niche."

and I'll agree with 88. Its like why do guys want to go and work in the rain on the line? I say its because they aren't right in the head.....but a ton of people do it. Its just what you like. Hangar is a lot like line but not near the time pressure. Line has minutes, hangar has hours.
Back shops are just the same old thing. every day. 5 days a week. blahhh

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

and I'll agree with 88. Its like why do guys want to go and work in the rain on the line? I say its because they aren't right in the head.....but a ton of people do it. Its just what you like. Hangar is a lot like line but not near the time pressure. Line has minutes, hangar has hours.
Back shops are just the same old thing. every day. 5 days a week. blahhh

There is nothing better than doing your line check or turning the flight. Clearing log items, signing off the logbook and maintenance release, greeting the crew, standing in the jetway watching the pax board, grabbing last minute gate check bags and helping the rampers button up, then pushing back the aircraft, watching it taxi away and takeoff. Doing it all on Holidays, rain or shine. I loved working the hangar...only when I was on the line and saw the aircraft that I had done a complete landing gear attach fitting replacement on, still flying...or seeing that new belly skin I helped replace...

I do miss working the line.

 

[WorldTraveler]

greeting the crew, standing in the jetway watching the pax board, grabbing last minute gate check bags and helping the rampers button up, then pushing back the aircraft

it has been eons since I have seen a mechanic at any airline do that.... but then all that stuff (including helping your coworkers) was the golden age of aviation.

 

[700UW]

Well since you arent at every airport and every jetway, I guess you wouldnt see that, now would you?

At CLT they installed slides on the jetway for baggage so no one has to carry them down.

 

[WorldTraveler]

I don't need to be at every jetway to know the trends...most DL flights operate to/from a hub which is staffed w/ mechanics so there is likely to be maintenance on one end or another of most flights.
Further, I have been on enough flights to know that mechanics usually don't stand around in jetways helping the ramp - which is quite ok because the company doesn't expect it and the ramp is very capable by themselves. Agents don't ask (or want) flight attendants operating the automated bag tag printers which DL has installed in many hub jetways and the ramp doesn't need another department doing their job.

What is notable is that DL's ramp employees do their job very well and have improved their performance over the past few years. DOT statistics show that DL has the lowest mishandled baggage rate among the nationwide network airlines and even carriers like AS and HA are only about 10% lower. Considering that DL connects a much higher percentage of passengers, operates out of much larger hubs, and serves the more delayprone east coast, DL's baggage performance is quite good and it is as much a reflection of the quality of DL's ramp personnel as is DL's dispatch reliability is of their maintenance personnel.

DL noted in its investor presentation today that about half of DL employees returned the company survey which was recently done and about 80% of those employees said that DL was a very good place to work. Even given the bias that company surveys tend to have, even when handled by outside companies, DL's employee results confirm that its people do their jobs well because they believe in what the company is doing; a high percentage of employees also expressed strong confidence in how the company is being run. Those stats are far from the norm in the airline industry.
Add in that DL's customer complaint statistics are about half of what other network carriers are receiving and not far from those of the "regional niche" mainline carriers, and DL's well-run operation can only be attributed to its workforce.

DL doesn't need its employees to do the jobs of other employees in other departments. DL employees do the jobs they do have well and the employees themselves as well as the customers both win.

DL stock touched a new high today but fell back below $19/share but DAL still closed with a market cap above $16 billion.