Delta May Ask The Ch11 Court To

The question is: Is the DELTA loyalty gone? Is it safe to say there will not be another "SPIRIT OF DELTA" airplane purchased by the employees? I hope not.

Now I'm confused. You write paragraph after paragraph about how DL employees should be outraged with their management and then you conclude with a seemingly disingenuous comment that you hope the emplyees don't lose their loyalty.

That being said...DL's strength is that it has not had the labor-mgmt disputes on the level of US (has anyone) and despite the recent press about the pilots...the majority at DL still have the committment to teamwork and the "spirit of delta". Sure it is difficult when the company is in bad times but it is in no way similar to the US issues (thankfully).

Now...the pilots. They are NOT the only group being targeted...they are the LAST group being targeted. All others have taken a cut (and I will guarantee that none of the other groups (with the exception of the ridiculous golden parachutes) had been offerred a million dollars to leave their job. The pilots haven't had it that bad and they are dragging their feet while all groups have been cut (including staffing reductions that will continue). But the wages by these other groups are MUCH lower proportionately so the LAST group to be in salary reduction discussions will also have the greatest impact.

I found the "offer" by the pilots last night to be ridiculous in that they will take a cut now but scale it back beginning next year (just a few months). Again...what makes them more important than the rest of the company in that they don't have to share the burden of their brothers?

But like U...it is a small minority that makes the stink and the union is definitely showing its colors.

And why did the other groups' wages get so high you ask? B/c DL has recognized that you don't just "screw" a group b/c they don't have a union and you need to be equitable. You tell us that DL employees should be outraged b/c the company gave to the non-union employees during good times?! Are you for real? Please stop trying to infect DL employees with US issues. DL is a great group...pilots included...and they don't need your "help".
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe UA established w/ their BK court that, essentially, the Railway Labor Act and its CBA provisions are superseded by bankruptcy laws.

On this one, you are wrong - the question of whether a union governed under the NRLA has a right to self-help subsequent to an 1113© is a matter of first impression for the courts, and precedents established WRT unions in other industries, as well as basic legal principles of equity, suggest that DALPA would be allowed to strike if their contract is tossed.
 
However, did not UAL successfully obtain an injunction against labor action as a result of its cuts? While it isn't entirely clear whether bankruptcy law supersedes labor law (specifically the Railway Labor Act), the bankruptcy courts have consistently sides with the company if it appears the estate is in jeopardy. In reality, however, it is very doubtful if many, if any Delta pilots will actually attempt to engage in job actions because they know DL is extraordinarily fragile right now and any action they take could result in a loss of not only the non-qualified part of their pension but their job and the qualified portion of their pension. Word is that DL has done a pretty good job over the years of disciplining pilots and perhaps other employees who have engaged in job actions which are not legal. I doubt seriously if their tactic will change. Bottom line is that the company can't give more, what is being offered is within market rates of pay, and the company has a ton of options in bankruptcy that they will use.
 
On this one, you are wrong - the question of whether a union governed under the NRLA has a right to self-help subsequent to an 1113© is a matter of first impression for the courts, and precedents established WRT unions in other industries, as well as basic legal principles of equity, suggest that DALPA would be allowed to strike if their contract is tossed.


Yes, the DL pilots can strike. Who will stop them if DL is able to have their contract thrown out? I hope they do strike and show the Grinch who is BOSS!
 
Not allowing the pilots to strike would effectively establish a new form of slavery in the USA, so I doubt that any prohibition against worker self-help after an 1113© abrogation would be upheld.
 
Not allowing the pilots to strike would effectively establish a new form of slavery in the USA, so I doubt that any prohibition against worker self-help after an 1113© abrogation would be upheld.

Pretty drastic analogy. Let me try this one...if I don't come to work b/c I am not happy that everything isn't going my way and I am being asked for my share of the sacrafice, sure I can not come in but sure...I should expect some consequences.

Strike away. That will rid the industry of a huge amount of capacity (when DL is forced to fold) and solve the other carriers' problems. Bravo! And then we can all just thank you when we are kicked out of the industry that most of us still enjoy to some degree.
 
Pretty drastic analogy. Let me try this one...if I don't come to work b/c I am not happy that everything isn't going my way and I am being asked for my share of the sacrafice, sure I can not come in but sure...I should expect some consequences.

Strike away. That will rid the industry of a huge amount of capacity (when DL is forced to fold) and solve the other carriers' problems. Bravo! And then we can all just thank you when we are kicked out of the industry that most of us still enjoy to some degree.


CH12....Please shut up...thank you
 
Pretty drastic analogy. Let me try this one...if I don't come to work b/c I am not happy that everything isn't going my way and I am being asked for my share of the sacrafice, sure I can not come in but sure...I should expect some consequences.

It's not drastic at all. If the contract is tossed, and the pilots are forced to work under terms that they did not agree to, it's a 13th Amendment slavery/involuntary servitude issue.
 
It's not drastic at all. If the contract is tossed, and the pilots are forced to work under terms that they did not agree to, it's a 13th Amendment slavery/involuntary servitude issue.

Even if the pilots were forced to work under terms they didn't agree to, the pilots always have the option of finding a job elsewhere. They can quit DL and go work for someone else. Slaves did not have that option.

Quit being such a drama queen.
 
Even if the pilots were forced to work under terms they didn't agree to, the pilots always have the option of finding a job elsewhere. They can quit DL and go work for someone else. Slaves did not have that option.

Quit being such a drama queen.
why quit? that would be playing right into their hands, no you strike and the company either comes to more agreeable fair terms or the whole shootin match is over....simple!
 
AP
Delta: Can't Say Whether Can Stop Strike
Monday November 14, 10:51 am ET
By Harry R. Weber, AP Business Writer
Delta Says It Can't Predict Whether It Can Stop a Strike if Pilots Walk Out


ATLANTA (AP) -- Delta Air Lines Inc. said Monday it can't predict whether it will be able to prevent or stop a strike if its pilots choose to walk off the job should their contract be thrown out in bankruptcy court.

The nation's third-largest carrier said in its quarterly report to the Securities and Exchange Commission that it believes a strike by its 6,000 pilots would be illegal, but at the same time it warned that it doesn't know if it would be able to get a court order to stop it.

"In addition, if we or our affiliates are unable to reach agreement with any of our unionized work groups on future negotiations regarding terms of their collective bargaining agreements, or if additional segments of our work force become unionized, we may be subject to work interruptions or stoppages," Delta said.

Delta's pilots, who are represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, have raised the prospect of a strike if the court rejects their contract. A bankruptcy court hearing in New York is set for Wednesday to discuss Delta's request to reject the pilot contract. The pilots plan a rally for Tuesday to defend their contract.

If the contract is rejected, Delta could impose $325 million in concessions it is seeking from its pilots, who have offered $90.7 million in average annual concessions over four years.

The cuts would be on top of $1 billion in annual concessions the pilots agreed to in a five-year deal reached in 2004. That deal included a 32.5 percent pay cut.

In Monday's SEC filing, Delta also said it can't predict whether its defined benefit pension plan will continue when it emerges from Chapter 11. Delta pilots have tried without success to get the company to continue making certain contributions to the pension plan during the bankruptcy case.

Delta estimates that its funding requirements under its defined benefit pension plan are roughly $3.4 billion between 2006-2008. The cash-strapped airline said it may be required to fully fund required contributions at the time it exits bankruptcy if it decides to keep the plan going.

Delta, which filed for Chapter 11 on Sept. 14, has recorded losses of more than $11 billion since January 2001 and over that period has announced that it would cut up to 33,000 jobs. Its loss in the third quarter, reported Thursday, was $1.13 billion.
 
CH12....Please shut up...thank you

Classy. Should I agree with the notion that labor is treated like slaves were? C'mon! Get over yourselves. I post reality and that bothers you. But very nice rebuttal. Shows alot of intelligent thought.

Can you dispute the idea that a strike by the pilots at DL would be no better than the EA strike that ended that carrier? DL is no better off than EA was and a strike WOULD be extremely detrimental...if not fatal...to the carrier. And again...it would be b/c there is no shared sacrifice.

boeing787...please don't post ignorantly...thank you.
 
Even if the pilots were forced to work under terms they didn't agree to, the pilots always have the option of finding a job elsewhere. They can quit DL and go work for someone else. Slaves did not have that option.


Delta pilots are NOT at-will employees, and do not become at-will even if their contract is tossed. Because Delta pilots fall under collective bargaining, any prohibition on self-help could ostensibly be deemed to include any en masse resignations (or threat of the same).

There's nothing dramatic about this - it is contrary to American law to force someone to work under terms that they did not agree to, and labor law and practice grants unionized employees self-help rights that at-will employees do not enjoy. This is one of the things that separates us from the likes of, say, Cambodia.
 
avek

Welcome back.

I agree with your basic premise in that I can't see a court prohibiting the pilots to engage in self-help if the court grants DL's motion to alter the terms collective bargaining agreement without the pilots' consent.

However, it is hardly a constitutional matter of slavery or involuntary servitude. The fact is the pilots CAN leave the employ of DL if they don't like the changes. Slaves could not leave their "employer" (if you want to consider slavery an employment arrangement). Big diff.

It is more a question of basic contract law, IMO, in that courts are loathe to require a party to be bound by the terms of a contract to which they did not agree, with no recourse available to them.