Delta May Ask The Ch11 Court To

[avek00]

avek

Welcome back.

I agree with your basic premise in that I can't see a court prohibiting the pilots to engage in self-help if the court grants DL's motion to alter the terms collective bargaining agreement without the pilots' consent.

However, it is hardly a constitutional matter of slavery or involuntary servitude. The fact is the pilots CAN leave the employ of DL if they don't like the changes. Slaves could not leave their "employer" (if you want to consider slavery an employment arrangement). Big diff.

It is more a question of basic contract law, IMO, in that courts are loathe to require a party to be bound by the terms of a contract to which they did not agree, with no recourse available to them.

You are correct Bear in the contract law underpinnings of the issue, but since a contract in the area of employment is involved, the issue of involuntary servitude would indeed arise. Unpleasant or unbelievable as it may be, if the pilots are bound to perform under contractual terms that they did not agree to, without recourse (other than perhaps resignation), we have reached if not crossed the threshold of involuntary servitude. It might not be at the same degrading level as chattel slavery, but forced labor is forced labor, period. As one legal eagle noted:

Whether they are able to do so legally, however, is a matter open for question.

"I tend to think they probably are," said William Rochelle, a bankruptcy lawyer in New York who represents a major creditor in the Delta case. "If not, I think there's a new form of slavery in the United States."

 

[Bear96]

I think the "legal eagle" you appear to be using as binding precedent was trying to make a dramatic point. I am sure I could find another quote by another lawyer scoffing at the idea that this would be slavery. We could have a pointless "battle of the experts."

We'll have to simply agree to disagree on this one.

 

[DLFlyer31]

the issue of involuntary servitude would indeed arise.

No, it wouldn't. Involuntary servitude would only be an issue IF DL was forcing pilots to work at DL and preventing them from working elsewhere. The pilots are free to find a different job....so involuntary servitude is not an issue.

I'm not debating that the pilots would have the right to strike. I believe they would. However, comparisons to slavery are foolish and only being made by sleazy lawyers looking for a sound bite.

 

[firstamendment]

Now I'm confused. You write paragraph after paragraph about how DL employees should be outraged with their management and then you conclude with a seemingly disingenuous comment that you hope the emplyees don't lose their loyalty.

My friend, you are being defensive. I know many non-union employees at DAL that are completely frustrated with all that is going on. They have been loyal DAL employees, but their deep passion to be loyal is not what it use to be.

Why is it hard for you to believe that your employees should be outraged? I would hope that the fine employees od DAL aren't that shallow. I would think most are intelligent enough to make up their own mind about how they feel.

I am also insulted that you chose to attack me base on the fact that I am from US. Your reply is the reason so many harbored resentments towards DAL for so many years. Obviously some have not been humbled.

You chose to read into some insult from me to the DAL employees. I was just trying to understand why you guys were in the situation you were in when you have one union group to deal with. I didn't ask for your personal rant and attacks towards US Airways.

And fyi, things at US Airways are looking up. We have a few issues to get pass, but the last I checked, the business community and analyst see positive things in US..stock is $33.88. I am loyal to my company, but I have a brain to think for myself.

 

[Ch. 12]

My friend, you are being defensive. I know many non-union employees at DAL that are completely frustrated with all that is going on. They have been loyal DAL employees, but their deep passion to be loyal is not what it use to be.

Why is it hard for you to believe that your employees should be outraged? I would hope that the fine employees od DAL aren't that shallow. I would think most are intelligent enough to make up their own mind about how they feel.

I am also insulted that you chose to attack me base on the fact that I am from US. Your reply is the reason so many harbored resentments towards DAL for so many years. Obviously some have not been humbled.

You chose to read into some insult from me to the DAL employees. I was just trying to understand why you guys were in the situation you were in when you have one union group to deal with. I didn't ask for your personal rant and attacks towards US Airways.

And fyi, things at US Airways are looking up. We have a few issues to get pass, but the last I checked, the business community and analyst see positive things in US..stock is $33.88. I am loyal to my company, but I have a brain to think for myself.

I NEVER attacked you outside of being astonished that your post took on the tone of a rallying cry for mistrust and disarray at DL. The company has a longstanding history of working together and doesn't need somebody on the sidelines telling employees that they need to stand up against the atrocities of mgmt. Nothing was done illogically in the past. Just b/c groups aren't unionized they shouldn't get comparable raises? That just makes no sense and would have created ills long ago if that logic were followed. DL has been fair in the past and that is why groups saw pay increases in good times.

So what is there to rally against now? A horrendous economic downturn for the industry? That seems like an opponent that no workgroup can defeat and therefore to stand up for one's rights when that is the true evil impacting today's decisions just doesn't make sense.

So it looks like YOU are the one being defensive. I posted two truths...one being that U has had historically horrendous labor-mgmt relations (complete truth) and the other being that there are many disgruntled U employees on these boards...a seemingly disproportionate amount. That isn't a bad thing b/c there needs to be a forum in which we can all vent but to draw similarities to DL's position to the ills at U just seems a little over-the-edge.

I do agree that things at U (LCC) are looking up. I definitely think that there is a LONG way to go b/c from what I see...labor is no happier and there seems to be alot of discord about integration. I, too, could have a $33 stock price if I just offered it for that amount to start. It is too early in the merger to have the true market take hold of LCC's stock price. Investors haven't figured it out yet and the "merger" still seems very much like two carriers. Only time will tell but today's stock price is not a good reflection of LCC's longterm viability.

But I have been at US and yes...am now at DL. I have seen both sides and I truly enjoy the atmosphere at DL. There definitely is a "spirit" here that I have not experienced in my past. I'm not ready to pick up the pitchfork just yet and go after mgmt. I understand that it is the market and not past decisions that guide what is necessary today. A completely unemotional, business-sense at my thought process.

 

[firstamendment]

I, too, could have a $33 stock price if I just offered it for that amount to start.

Offered at $19, thank you.

I'm not going to start a pissing match with you. I know what my intent was and don't have to prove it to anyone on these threads. So be happy and hang in there. I hope DAL's "non-emotional business sense" continues.