Delta plan rejected by creditors of Japan’s No. 3 airline

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700UW

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Nov 11, 2003
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first, it was a Delta/Itrepid plan...(the leasing company involved with some of the Skymark widebody aircraft)

second, DL undoubtedly knew there was a risk and probably a lot of money involved in the bid. The risk is because Skymark has very little presence at NRT so that would have to be built while there is a pretty big barrier between connectivity for US and Japan flights at HND. DL has been pretty successful at arguing that the US should not allow any significant flights between HND and the US at times which would provide connectivity because it would harm DL's NRT hub. DL's decision to maintain 2 HND flights and then give up SEA was undoubtedly driven by its desire to ensure that DL maintained the leadership size in the US-Japan market as long as there was any threat to DL's NRT hub.

third, DL's bid could have been a "spoiler" bid.... just like with JL and Skyteam, it might have been a long shot but it increased the cost to ANA.

fourth, it leaves Japan in the policy quandry of having a very unbalanced domestic market again since ANA just got a disproportionate amount of slots compared to JL at HND and this will further aggravate it. This is bad news for JL as much as some would like to try to present it otherwise.

DL has been working for years to minimize connectivity over Japan while reducing the cost of doing business in Japan. The new 333s can fly most of DL's NRT operation at a much lower cost and the 359s can do JFK and ATL.

DL likely knew its bid for Skymark was a stretch which is why it acquired a stake in China Eastern which will likely yield better results at a lower cost.

Further, DL labor including DL pilots saw this transaction as a risk to their jobs even though it wasn't clear how it would work.

DL is in the position now of continuing down the same path of growing service to destinations in Asia beyond Japan nonstop from the US, reducing capacity to Japan to remove connections while maintaining its share in the local Japan-US market, and increasing its cooperation in other markets.

I predict we will see at least one and possibly two more nonstop US-Asia flights for 2016 with TPE likely near the top of the list and the elimination of NRT-TPE.
 
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WorldTraveler said:
first, it was a Delta/Itrepid plan...(the leasing company involved with some of the Skymark widebody aircraft)

second, DL undoubtedly knew there was a risk and probably a lot of money involved in the bid. The risk is because Skymark has very little presence at NRT so that would have to be built while there is a pretty big barrier between connectivity for US and Japan flights at HND. DL has been pretty successful at arguing that the US should not allow any significant flights between HND and the US at times which would provide connectivity because it would harm DL's NRT hub. DL's decision to maintain 2 HND flights and then give up SEA was undoubtedly driven by its desire to ensure that DL maintained the leadership size in the US-Japan market as long as there was any threat to DL's NRT hub.

third, DL's bid could have been a "spoiler" bid.... just like with JL and Skyteam, it might have been a long shot but it increased the cost to ANA.

fourth, it leaves Japan in the policy quandry of having a very unbalanced domestic market again since ANA just got a disproportionate amount of slots compared to JL at HND and this will further aggravate it. This is bad news for JL as much as some would like to try to present it otherwise.

DL has been working for years to minimize connectivity over Japan while reducing the cost of doing business in Japan. The new 333s can fly most of DL's NRT operation at a much lower cost and the 359s can do JFK and ATL.

DL likely knew its bid for Skymark was a stretch which is why it acquired a stake in China Eastern which will likely yield better results at a lower cost.

Further, DL labor including DL pilots saw this transaction as a risk to their jobs even though it wasn't clear how it would work.

DL is in the position now of continuing down the same path of growing service to destinations in Asia beyond Japan nonstop from the US, reducing capacity to Japan to remove connections while maintaining its share in the local Japan-US market, and increasing its cooperation in other markets.

I predict we will see at least one and possibly two more nonstop US-Asia flights for 2016 with TPE likely near the top of the list and the elimination of NRT-TPE.
 with what aircraft exactly? 
 
FrugalFlyerv2.0 said:
Sour grapes?
I just like the positive spin. "Further, DL labor including DL pilots saw this transaction as a risk to their jobs even though it wasn't clear how it would work." is my favorite like. 
 
In other words, when Delta loses a bid to outsource more of its flying its great.........but when Delta does outsource its flying its also great. 
So its great, always great in Delta land.  :huh:  :huh: 
 
700UW said:
Oh darn
 
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let us know when that day last happened, dawg, and when it will happen again.

and yes, Kev, every day is a good day given how outstanding the operation is while the great days are the ones when you and your colleagues gain the recompense for your efforts.

and dawg, you clearly missed the other points or ignored them to try to turn the argument exclusively into a labor discussion.

perhaps the execs in ATL saw a plan that would deliver an easier result but a tie up with Skymark would have required DL and/or Skymark to figure out how to shift operations between each other's primary points in Japan.

and the equity was only part of the effort. DL might have gained some feed and perhaps a larger presence in Japan via a strong brand tie up with Skymark but the chances are very high that DL can gain benefits as large with China Eastern and other carriers in Asia that it chooses to invest in outside of restructuring.

and the HGW 333s should be able to do SEA-TPE at least in the summer; perhaps the summer would require the 777 but given that no airline has pushed the HGW 333s to their limits yet while the current 333s are doing SEA-ICN with much less weight available, the HGW 333s will be seeing duty on the Pacific and not just for SEA-NRT and ICN.
 
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WorldTraveler said:
let us know when that day last happened, dawg, and when it will happen again.
plenty of people took furloughs after the merger.....
 
WorldTraveler said:
and dawg, you clearly missed the other points or ignored them to try to turn the argument exclusively into a labor discussion.
because the rest of it was a positive spine to hide butt hurt.
more importantly when someone who could careless about labor acts like he does care about labor i enjoy pointing it out. It was part of a (failed) management strategy under the worst leadership Delta ever had.
 
WorldTraveler said:
perhaps the execs in ATL saw a plan that would deliver an easier result but a tie up with Skymark would have required DL and/or Skymark to figure out how to shift operations between each other's primary points in Japan.

and the equity was only part of the effort. DL might have gained some feed and perhaps a larger presence in Japan via a strong brand tie up with Skymark but the chances are very high that DL can gain benefits as large with China Eastern and other carriers in Asia that it chooses to invest in outside of restructuring.
As many times as you say it, Delta can't get any closer to MU than they are. It takes bilateral changed and, while we all know you think Delta can, should and will do whatever they want (laws, leases, bilateral, contracts etc be damned*), tell China allows for a more open air market, Delta isn't getting closer to MU or CZ. 

*note this was also a way of thinking in the failed management i talked about above. 
WorldTraveler said:
and the HGW 333s should be able to do SEA-TPE at least in the summer; perhaps the summer would require the 777 but given that no airline has pushed the HGW 333s to their limits yet while the current 333s are doing SEA-ICN with much less weight available, the HGW 333s will be seeing duty on the Pacific and not just for SEA-NRT and ICN.
Didn't ask you what aircraft can do SEA-TPE. 
I asked you where is Delta getting aircraft from. The fleet is already stretched thin and will be getting thinner with less 744s in the fleet. 
 
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WorldTraveler said:
perhaps the execs in ATL saw a plan that would deliver an easier result but a tie up with Skymark would have required DL and/or Skymark to figure out how to shift operations between each other's primary points in Japan.

and the equity was only part of the effort. DL might have gained some feed and perhaps a larger presence in Japan via a strong brand tie up with Skymark but the chances are very high that DL can gain benefits as large with China Eastern and other carriers in Asia that it chooses to invest in outside of restructuring.
 
So once the brilliant DL execs figured out that the investment in Skymark was probably going to be a 'loser' and have proceeded instead to get a deal with / invest in China Eastern, why did they not withdraw their bid for Skymark but instead waited for their bid to be rejected?
 
It seems to me that you're over-spinning this minor story and at the same time making things up.  Again.
 
I'm rather curious to read how you will unwind yourself from this contradiction.
 
Spin spin spin spin spin away!
 
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FrugalFlyerv2.0 said:
 
So once the brilliant DL execs figured out that the investment in Skymark was a 'loser' and have proceeded instead to get a deal with / invest in China Eastern, why did they not withdraw their bid for Skymark but instead waited for their bid to be rejected?
 
It seems to me that you're over-spinning this minor story and at the same time making things up.  Again.
 
I'm rather curious to read how you will unwind yourself from this contradiction.
 
Spin spin spin spin spin away!
some how, some way it will end up with Delta being better than American 
 
i feel like profit sharing will be tossed into this too. 
 
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dawg,
once again, you prove that you have to see me as the enemy of labor in order to create division.

I am not against labor or DL employees.

I have repeatedly said that I do not believe labor unions can get a better deal for DL employees and that DLs employees are better off without any further unions and your peers have agreed with me.

The merger was in 2008, dawg. this is 2015.

let us know how many pay cuts, stalled negotiations, and outsourced jobs have occurred elsewhere in the industry in that period of time.

as for additional flying, you do realize that the NRT hub is very inefficient in terms of the use of aircraft? by rebanking it and cutting out intra-Asia flying, there are aircraft freed up.

AA is not investing in any Asian carriers so it isn't even in the same league as DL regarding this aspect of Asia.

And nowhere did I or DL say that DL would have lost money in Skymark but that there were likely better investments that would have yielded a higher ROI.

Read and respond to what is written, not what you want it to say.
 
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WorldTraveler said:
dawg,
once again, you prove that you have to see me as the enemy of labor in order to create division.
to create division it would require you to

work for Delta.
 
WorldTraveler said:
I am not against labor or DL employees.
unless its for "the good of the company"
 
WorldTraveler said:
I have repeatedly said that I do not believe labor unions can get a better deal for DL employees and that DLs employees are better off without any further unions and your peers have agreed with me.
once again you go running right back to unions. Where did i say anything about a union?
 
WorldTraveler said:
The merger was in 2008, dawg. this is 2015.
do you have a point?
 
WorldTraveler said:
let us know how many pay cuts, stalled negotiations, and outsourced jobs have occurred elsewhere in the industry in that period of time.
and then quickly trying to move away from Delta and onto what other airlines are doing.
shocker
 
WorldTraveler said:
as for additional flying, you do realize that the NRT hub is very inefficient in terms of the use of aircraft? by rebanking it and cutting out intra-Asia flying, there are aircraft freed up.
cutting NRT-TPE is simply not going to free up enough aircraft for SEA-TPE 
 
On top of that Delta recently reworked NRT to gain more slack in the fleet to park 747s and not replace them.

WorldTraveler said:
AA is not investing in any Asian carriers so it isn't even in the same league as DL regarding this aspect of Asia.
point?

WorldTraveler said:
And nowhere did I or DL say that DL would have lost money in Skymark but that there were likely better investments that would have yielded a higher ROI.
what are you even talking about?
Delta didn't pull out its bid for SkyMark, they lost the bid.

Airbus and the creditors went with ANA. pretty simple.
 
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WorldTraveler said:
as for additional flying, you do realize that the NRT hub is very inefficient in terms of the use of aircraft? by rebanking it and cutting out intra-Asia flying, there are aircraft freed up.
 
But isn't the current NRT-TPE flight operated by a 767?  How is that aircraft going to work on SEA-TPE?  Yes, they could donwgauge some different route to a 767, but I think dawg makes a good point that DLs fleet in stretched to the limit - at least for now.
 
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Your own posts over the years  shows your anti-labor.
 
You threatened flight attendants with the big bad DL will not do anything for them if they unionize.
 
You did the same to the pilots, and you threatened Kevin's and Dawg's jobs numerous times.
 
Call a spade a spade, you are anti-worker, anti-labor and anti-union.
 
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