Delta To Issue Major Widebody RFP For 747/767 Replacements

[topDawg]

Thanks for clearing things up Dawg. It makes more sense that the reason for DL not using A330s to Brazil is more of a capacity issue than a performance (range + engines).

I know that some members think Delta can just capacity dump where ever they want that isn't true. 
 
And just a quick note. before Delta added ATL-GRU number two they did try to increase capacity beyond the 764. however they could never get any Group V slots. My understanding was for the Atlanta winter Delta was going to use the 744 and the Atlanta summer the 333.
 
With the 2nd flight it will be a while before we see a big capacity change to GRU. ATL-GRU #1 and 2 would go 764 before anything else changes. (the only thing that might happen is a JFK-GRU number 2. In which case both of those flights would go 763.)  

 

[WorldTraveler]

of the list of fleets which you listed that don't have the highest thrust engine available, most are PMNW fleets.

the 757 is already one of the most generously powered aircraft even with 2037 engines.

DL could have put larger engines on the 738s but what DL has does the job... how many airlines the size of DL have larger engines on the 738.

and, no DL has people in ATL that have determined the 333 cannot leave GRU with a full passenger load and the cargo which is typical of GRU.

DL has not used the 332 to GRU either but has used it to other deep S. America destinations.

the PMNW 330s have not and will not see GRU. Every other widebody including the 744 has been there at one time or another even in not on a scheduled basis.


DL's 2nd ATL-GRU flight is fairly new. capacity is adequate now but DL wanted a larger aircraft and also will need it at some point in the future.

DL also has line maintenance at GRU which allows them to work on issues.

and DL mixes the 763 and 764s in/out of Brazil (GRU and GIG) because DL does heavy cabin cleaning there, taking advantage of the extended ground time.

and again, most of the capacity limits at GRU were related to terminal facilities which have largely been addressed with the opening of Terminal 3

much of AA's schedule at GRU is now 773s which seat more than 300 people.

 

[700UW]

The engines aren't larger they can have a higher thurst output.

 

[WorldTraveler]

yeah we figured that out, Einstein.

 

[700UW]

Well dopey the dwarf YOU stated larger engines, another one of your misinformed posts.

 

[WorldTraveler]

any one that understands the topic knows it isn't a literal reference to the size of the engine.

are you going to correct dawg for referring to aircraft engines as "motors"

surely both of you know the difference between an engine and a motor.

and regardless of what dawg calls them, DL does in fact buy higher if not highest thrust engines while even if his history about AA's desire to equip the 330s with 70K engines is correct, they didn't make that decision on other aircraft.

and I'd also like to hear him tell me if the 767-300ER was offered with an engine "larger" than 60K engines at the time DL ordered its first 763ERs, how many airlines have engines larger than 60K that don't have hubs in the mountains, and how many DL 763ER flights he has seen weight restricted that weren't or wouldn't have also been weight restricted on any other twin.

 

[topDawg]

of the list of fleets which you listed that don't have the highest thrust engine available, most are PMNW fleets.

Wait what? 738 isn't NW (73) MD90 isn't NW (65) 757 isn't just NW (150+ peak for just Delta) 77Ls aren't NW (10) 763s with Prats aren't NW (to lazy to look it up, ~half the ER fleet and 4 767-300As) 
 
And NW would have the higher thrust 330s if Pratt wouldn't have screwed up. really screwed over NW and KE
 

the 757 is already one of the most generously powered aircraft even with 2037 engines.

Okay....but that isn't the highest thrust option. 
 

DL could have put larger engines on the 738s but what DL has does the job... how many airlines the size of DL have larger engines on the 738.

Well all of AA's 738 (200-300 of them?) have the CFM56-7B27 engines on them (or they did, I assume AA is still going that route) 
 
but again, You said Delta goes with the highest thrust options. Outside of a few 767s and 777 (and the MD88 where they didn't have a choice) they don't. It doesn't matter what other airlines do. You are wrong, again......so quite deflecting 

and, no DL has people in ATL that have determined the 333 cannot leave GRU with a full passenger load and the cargo which is typical of GRU.

Again. Delta has issued memos saying they have requested group V slots at GRU for 330 and 747 use. You want to tell them they are lying talk to them. 
 
You don't have the smallest idea of what you are talking about. I would stop telling the guy who happens to be 320 and 330 qualified that he is wrong.
 
 

DL has not used the 332 to GRU either but has used it to other deep S. America destinations.

Again, can't get Group V slots. 767 is group IV 330/340/777/787/350/744 are Group V. 
 
You bringing the 332 into this shows me you know nothing about what you are talking about. It somewhat funny you think the 333 can't do it. It is just sad that that you think the 332 can't. (and that the 242t 333 would be able to do it, even though Delta's 332s still have longer legs than the 242t 333. Regardless of engine choice.) 
 
As it is, airlines like AF, KL, KE have all used the 330 into GRU on longer routes and all have 68K engines. (KE is PW, AF/KL are GEs) Just some examples. 
 

the PMNW 330s have not and will not see GRU. Every other widebody including the 744 has been there at one time or another even in not on a scheduled basis.

When has the 747 been to GRU? 
 

DL's 2nd ATL-GRU flight is fairly new. capacity is adequate now but DL wanted a larger aircraft and also will need it at some point in the future.

And if they do they have the ability to add more 764 capacity well before they would need the big bus.  
 

DL also has line maintenance at GRU which allows them to work on issues.
and DL mixes the 763 and 764s in/out of Brazil (GRU and GIG) because DL does heavy cabin cleaning there, taking advantage of the extended ground time.

I love how you like to throw out random fact to make it seem like you know what you are talking about. 
Delta mixes the 764 into GRU because of capacity needs. 
 
ATL and I believe now MSP also do deep cleans. They aren't sending any aircraft down there just for deep cleans. 

and again, most of the capacity limits at GRU were related to terminal facilities which have largely been addressed with the opening of Terminal 3

That is correct. T3 in 2014. Delta asked for Group V slots in 2011, 2012 and 2013. All three times they were rejected. Delta started ATL-GRU number 2 3/1/14. That would be why they haven't requested any Group V slots for 2014 or 2015. 
 

much of AA's schedule at GRU is now 773s which seat more than 300 people.

Dude. you make me want to beat my head against the wall. 
 
That doesn't mean jack crap. As you can see here the 777-200ER and 777-300ER are both group V aircraft. So AA can switch between 777 types without asking for different slots. Delta uses nothing but 767s to GRU which means they must request new slots to go from 767 to any group V aircraft. The 777 and A330 are group V aircraft

 

[WorldTraveler]

beat your head against the wall if that is what you want to do.

I am well aware that DL wanted to use 300 seat class aircraft BEFORE it was awarded the 2nd flight. (and yes the 333 and 772 in DL config are less than 300 seats)

DL doesn't need or want a larger aircraft to Brazil right now.

and I didn't say that DL sends the 764s to Brazil ONLY for deep cleaning. they do it because it is the right aircraft. and given that DL has operated ATL-GRU at times only with 763ERs instead of 1 each 763/764, they aren't wedded to the 764 just because it is a 764. (which really aren't any different except for the location of the potties)

I'll amend my comment that DL buys the highest thrust engine available and which is used by large fleet operators.

Let me know which large airlines use engines on the 738 larger than DL. (I believe Gol is one of them - and those are the engines DL overhauls... outside of the big 3 int'l airports, most Brazilian airports have short runways)

No airline used the PW2040 on the 757 unless the aircraft was intended for int'l ops.
.
the 110K GE engine is the standard engine for the 77L and as meto has noted, DL is authorized to use the extra 5K of thrust - the maximum available from that engine even on the 77W - as necessary on takeoffs from JNB.

I'll also concede that NW WANTED to have a "larger" engine on the 330s but was wedded to P&W and they failed to deliver. DL is not in love with PW either, IIRC.

tell me when KE used a 330 into GRU. given that their flight originates in Asia, it would require operating the TPAC flight as well.

perhaps it was on the same day that DL substituted the 744 into GRU and you weren't looking.

and the 77E/L is in GRU more often that you might think. given that it is a class V aircraft, I would guess DL figures out a way to get authorization to use it on an occasional basis.

BTW< you do realize that DL has significantly stricter operational requirements than other carriers... no M80s in SLC even though AA has used them... etc.

as for M90s since no one else realistically flies them, it is rather immaterial what they have. and since DL has the majority of the world's M90 and 717 fleet, those aircraft work as is, don't they?

I'm still waiting for you to tell me what large airlines esp. those in the US have fleets of aircraft with "larger" engines (motors) than DL.

 

[topDawg]

Let me know which large airlines use engines on the 738 larger than DL. (I believe Gol is one of them - and those are the engines DL overhauls... outside of the big 3 int'l airports, most Brazilian airports have short runways)

I don't know of any. Again you are dancing around the question. You made a statement it is wrong. 
 
Having said that I am pretty sure that at least some of AA's 738s have 27K motors on them. Would have to ask over there to be sure.
 

No airline used the PW2040 on the 757 unless the aircraft was intended for int'l ops.

Again, this might be true. (but the 2043 is the highest engine choice. Delta uses the 2040 on some of its fleet FYI. they get de-rated to 2037s at about 3/4s of the life cycle to extend the TBO) 
 

the 110K GE engine is the standard engine for the 77L and as meto has noted, DL is authorized to use the extra 5K of thrust - the maximum available from that engine even on the 77W - as necessary on takeoffs from JNB.

Again, not saying any of that isn't true. All I am saying is you can get a 113 and 115 engine for the 77L. Delta originally was going with the 115 but changed at the last minute to the 110. 
 
 

I'll also concede that NW WANTED to have a "larger" engine on the 330s but was wedded to P&W and they failed to deliver. DL is not in love with PW either, IIRC.

nope. Support problems for the 2037, 4000s, V2500s and 219s have all been issue with Pratt.......big reason? because Pratt outsources so much. 
 

tell me when KE used a 330 into GRU. given that their flight originates in Asia, it would require operating the TPAC flight as well.

At one point KE had a ICN-LAX-GRU 3x weekly flight with a 332. AF has also used the 332 into GRU before. (and of course TAM who has an active fleet of 13 332s with a mix of CF6s and 4168As) 
 

and the 77E/L is in GRU more often that you might think. given that it is a class V aircraft, I would guess DL figures out a way to get authorization to use it on an occasional basis.

Operations subs are different than normal operations. All airports keep some slots back for operational/emergency operations. You know this and now are trying to be a smart ass. Again. Delta hasn't been able to get Group V slots at GRU in the past. I know you don't like that because it makes you wrong but its true champ. 
 
Same idea as an airport like a A380 landing at an airport like TPA that isn't an A380 airport. It can happen, but no one is going to do it on a regular bases. 
 

BTW< you do realize that DL has significantly stricter operational requirements than other carriers... no M80s in SLC even though AA has used them... etc.

Delta has had SLC MD88 flights before. Its rare due to the engine out issues but has happened. I believe it was 2009 or 2010 that Delta used a MD88 on MSP-SLC-SJC turns. It didn't last very long, month or two but did happen. 
 
And because AA has MD83s they can use them out of SLC. IIRC they have a higher thrust to weight ratio which allows it. (and shorts stage links) 
 
 

as for M90s since no one else realistically flies them, it is rather immaterial what they have. and since DL has the majority of the world's M90 and 717 fleet, those aircraft work as is, don't they?

Again, you said Delta goes for the highest thrust engine. that is false sorry. 
 

I'm still waiting for you to tell me what large airlines esp. those in the US have fleets of aircraft with "larger" engines (motors) than DL.

uh what do you mean? 
AA has GE90-115Bs
Sounds like United is very close to having the same. 
US has Trents 772Bs on the 332. 
Like I said I think AA has CFM56-7B27s on some of their 800s. 
Pretty sure the CO 753s have the 40K RB211s on them. (not sure which RB211 AA/CO have on their 757s.....) 
uhh AA's 319s all have 26K CFM56s 
HA's Trents are 772Bs.
UPS has some 4062s in the fleet. (not sure if its 767 or MD11 or 744) 
 
 
not sure what else, sure I'm missing some. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

AA flies 773ERs. DL doesn't. DL gets the power of the 115 when it needs it on the lighter 77L.

AA bought the 319s with the intention of it being their pocket rocket.

and DL's 330s will not be PW powered.

UPS isn't a passenger carrier. Their fleet of the same types is newer than the US legacy passenger carriers.

hope you've enjoyed this exercise but it doesn't change that the DL 330s haven't been used to Brazil but have been used to other destinations in deep S. America. The 332 seats slightly fewer people than the 764 so could have been used if DL wanted to... but they didn't and won't.

TAM's 330s are on the way out.

there is plenty of space available at GRU now.

given the Brazilian economy is weakening, the new 339s and 359s will likely be in the fleet by the time there is an economic need for more capacity.

 

[topDawg]

AA flies 773ERs. DL doesn't. DL gets the power of the 115 when it needs it on the lighter 77L.

AA bought the 319s with the intention of it being their pocket rocket.

and DL's 330s will not be PW powered.

UPS isn't a passenger carrier. Their fleet of the same types is newer than the US legacy passenger carriers.

hope you've enjoyed this exercise but it doesn't change that the DL 330s haven't been used to Brazil but have been used to other destinations in deep S. America. The 332 seats slightly fewer people than the 764 so could have been used if DL wanted to... but they didn't and won't.

TAM's 330s are on the way out.

there is plenty of space available at GRU now.

given the Brazilian economy is weakening, the new 339s and 359s will likely be in the fleet by the time there is an economic need for more capacity.

Taking your ball and going home now huh? 
 
Had fun proving you wrong yet again champ. On to the next thread....... 

 

[FrugalFlyerv2.0]

I'll amend my comment that DL buys the highest thrust engine available and which is used by large fleet operators.

 
Huh?
 
What?  Oh, you've been proven to be wrong (possibly flat out lying, again) and now need a qualifier statement to be able to claim you were correct. 
That's pathetic!
 

Taking your ball and going home now huh? 
 
Had fun proving you wrong yet again champ. On to the next thread....... 

+1000000

 

[WorldTraveler]

Taking your ball and going home now huh? 
 
Had fun proving you wrong yet again champ. On to the next thread.......

nope.... I am noting that you haven't proven that DL's peer airlines have significantly more power on their aircraft than DL has.... you have yet to prove that the "larger" engines that are available but DL didn't choose to order are really used to any significant degree among US passenger airlines... and more significantly, you haven't proven that the 330s will ever end up at GRU.

the aircraft that were the subject of this RFP will, however.

 

[Glenn Quagmire]

The NW 330s weren't capable of flying GRU

 

[WorldTraveler]

your point?

until one actually does with a full passenger payload and the 15-20K pounds of cargo that are not unusual on Brazil-US flights (on any carrier), my position remains that DL determined that the 330 - either as -200s or -300s - aren't suited for the Brazil market and particularly GRU.

dawg's assertion that NW wanted more powerful engines is fine but the reality is they got what they got.

and the 330 is still a great aircraft for the routes it does operate - including from the west coast to Japan and Europe.