DL CEO hints at PVG hub

[topDawg]

Keep in mind DL "had" to fly SEA-ICN because KE doesn't serve it, and it's the major Skyteam hub in the region.

check that again E, KE has a daily 777-200ER flight to SEA from ICN. (so does EVA....lot of capacity between those two and Delta)
 

Without a JV with KE, there's some incentive for DL to serve LAX-ICN, but it's questionable how well they'd hold up against KE, aside of the captive elite market who already doesn't earn full credit for flying on KE. If DL had the same FF reciprocity you see in oneworld or Star, customers would have no barriers to flying on the alliance partner. But, we all know how DL feels about their non-JV "partners".

but my argument is even with a JV, Delta would need to fly to ICN from LAX. Same reason they need to fly to London and Sydney.

while its nice to think DL/AF or AA/BA are one, they aren't. Every corporate contract I have ever seen has carrier(s) listed, but nothing about JVs.
A big reason is the product difference between say DL and AF.
And when management has been asked about moving out of SYD, corporate contracts (that wouldn't be passed on to Virgin without a re-bid)would be gone and could very well end up with QF or United.

 

IIRC, DL announced LAX-SYD about the same time the JV with VA was announced. I was directly working with VA on their startup, and the loads they were generating at the time were less than enthusiastic. They had to give away their business class product (which was better than QF's) by pricing it at half of what QF was getting at the time. Linking up with DL gave them an instant shot in the arm, and it was good for both airlines. Mutual benefit. That's where a JV works.

Delta announced LAX-SYD in 08, Delta/Virgin JV was approved in 11.

Virgin started out working with United, I don't know it they had a codeshare or just intrerline.

There's no need to do that with QF & AA. There's no need to do that with CX & AA, either. Both are the dominant players in their home markets, and the only people who think that the airline needs to be there are employees who've been brainwashed into thinking that an airline has to fly its own metal to be viewed as important.

I disagree completely. If that was the case I don't believe you would have seen Delta jumping into some of the routes they have, LAX-LHR being the big one. (corporate contract wise, Virgin would be much better of flying the route 100%)
 

You can continue to beat the drums about how other airlines are less successful because they don't follow DL's way of business, but it doesn't mean it's the only way to be successful.

have not even came close to saying that.
 

Customer behavior certainly proves otherwise. So does the experience of the 90% of airlines involved in alliances who choose to leverage that and *not* overlay each other's point to point flying.

 Really? I can't think of a case with the US three where a JV partner does most or all of the flying like AA does with its partners.

Let me put it another way, I don't think United is about to drop ORD-NRT for ANA to fly it. AA has done the exact thing with JAL (on the same route, abit not completely)
 

I'm sure that there would be a few people wanting to rub it in WT's nose, since that's what he does daily over in the AA, AS, and WN forum as soon as there's a whiff of a negative story, but I think Jim's right that most people could give a rats ass what DL does.

I am sure that is true, but my point was, the moment Delta drops a route and a JV partner picks it up, this place will be full of AA people talking about it.

but when I do the same on the flip side its because I am a cheer leader for Delta and just like WT..... complete horse ****.
 

Frankly, if DL were never mentioned again outside the DL forum, and AA were never mentioned in the DL forum, these boards would be a much more civil environment.

I disagree. I think people can be civil about it. I have compared DL and AA on the AA site and, other than a few ass holes, it have been a good conversation.

This place would be a lot better without the pissing contests. Most of us are airline employees and, like it or not, need each other to do well.

 

[robbedagain]

how well will or does DL do btwn SEA and ICN vs EVA and KE??  

 

[WorldTraveler]

DL apparently does well enough to ICN to upgrade it to a 333 as well as operate a 744 from DTW.

DOT data says it is a decent market that generates revenues proportionate with the distance.

 

[eolesen]

check that again E, KE has a daily 777-200ER flight to SEA from ICN. (so does EVA....lot of capacity between those two and Delta)

Odd. KE didn't come up when I was looking on Kayak. Didn't care about Asiana (Eva doesn't fly SEA-ICN).
 

Delta announced LAX-SYD in 08, Delta/Virgin JV was approved in 11.

Virgin started out working with United, I don't know it they had a codeshare or just interline.

Quite wrong on both counts.

You're just looking at the JV, but DL and VA announced an interline in March 2009:

https://www.velocityfrequentflyer.com/content/ProgramBenefits/LatestNews/VAustraliaandDeltaAirLinesSignInterlineAgreement/

Quickly followed in December by full FF and codewhoring:

https://www.velocityfrequentflyer.com/content/ProgramBenefits/LatestNews/DeltaLaunch/

 

[topDawg]

Odd. KE didn't come up when I was looking on Kayak. Didn't care about Asiana (Eva doesn't fly SEA-ICN).

duh eva is based in TPE, my bad.

 

Quite wrong on both counts.

You're just looking at the JV, but DL and VA announced an interline in March 2009:

https://www.velocityfrequentflyer.com/content/ProgramBenefits/LatestNews/VAustraliaandDeltaAirLinesSignInterlineAgreement/

Quickly followed in December by full FF and codewhoring:

https://www.velocityfrequentflyer.com/content/ProgramBenefits/LatestNews/DeltaLaunch/

I thought we were talking about the JV.....?

 

[eolesen]

You may have been talking about the JV with ATI.

I'm talking about marketing partnerships, regardless if it's a simple codewhore, a full-blown JV with ATI, or any variation in between.

They both serve the same goal of extending the marketing reach of the respective airlines, and the ability to get a cut of sales that ultimately involve someone else's metal.

Regardless, the application with DOT was submitted on July 9, 2009, a week after DL started service.

It took two years for approval, and was denied once along the way, but still pretty much backs up my original point that the filing was made about the time DL started service. DL and VA were in talks during 1Q09 from what I recall, because it changed some of our automation requirements.

Docket

 

[WorldTraveler]

it was pretty clear to anyone that was reading that the discussion was about JVs.

you just happened to change the subject when it was clear that dawg was correct.

 

[topDawg]

You may have been talking about the JV with ATI.

I'm talking about marketing partnerships, regardless if it's a simple codewhore, a full-blown JV with ATI, or any variation in between.

They both serve the same goal of extending the marketing reach of the respective airlines, and the ability to get a cut of sales that ultimately involve someone else's metal.

Regardless, the application with DOT was submitted on July 9, 2009, a week after DL started service.

It took two years for approval, and was denied once along the way, but still pretty much backs up my original point that the filing was made about the time DL started service. DL and VA were in talks during 1Q09 from what I recall, because it changed some of our automation requirements.

Docket

two things, 
first JVs are a different ball game than a code share or an interline. On a simple codeshare you can't link of flying etc. etc. like you can with ATI. 
Also the application might have been submitted in 09 but wasn't approved and implemented till 11. That is what really matters here. 

 

[eolesen]

I doubt DL had any intent of waiting two years for approval.

From a customer perspective, there's no difference between codewhoring with and without ATI.

To think there isn't any tacit coordination of pricing & schedules going on without ATI is foolish, especially when all of that information gets broadcast via the GDS's.

The only real difference is how the revenue and the risk gets split up. Even there, in a market with such limited service, it's probably not radically different once you net things out from what it would be if both carriers were a standalone.

 

[WorldTraveler]

99.9% of passengers don't know what ATI or a JV is and it doesn't matter either here or to passengers.

Other than noting that DL managed to enter the Australia market AND THEN develop a joint venture, I'm not sure what the point of this Australia side show is other than to note that AA doesn't fly to there on its own metal while DL and UA do.

the discussion is about China, specifically PVG, and in that market DL will be about 50% larger than AA in terms of seats offered and about 80% of the size of UA.

UA has made no indication of its interest in a JV with its Star partners if it could have one but it is far more likely than not that China will engage in JVs because without them US carriers have little incentive to push non-China connecting traffic over China - and China wants a piece of that action.

 

[jcw]

a JV that doesn't include AA metal to the destination can't possibly be considered labor friendly.

and again, it is no surprise that the AA fan boys want to do all they can to NOT see DL deepen its relationships with mainline Chinese carriers since AA doesn't have ANY current codesharing beyond PVG or PEK with a Chinese carrier.

and stronger DL-Chinese business relationships make it harder for AA to succeed on its own flights to PVG - which it appears are being downgraded to 787s just as UA has done.

in fact, DL's increased share of the PVG market has been made possible because of downgrades of other carriers from 777s to 787s, now hasn't it?

 
Well the side show started back around here is the first time you started talking about AA's JV's - you point clearly states AA's JV with QF is not good because AA does not fly there - I know it's hard to remember from the 18000 posts what you stated - it's like DL flying to NBO or HAN - those cities are part of skyteam however DL does not fly to those desitinations so this must not be labor friendly using your logic

 

[WorldTraveler]

I said nothing about whether AA's JV with QF is good or not.

AA just doesn't happen to serve Australia and it would appear that AA employees don't get the chance to work 14 hour flights on their own metal but instead have to opt for putting passengers on QF flights - which don't have a single AA FA or pilot on them.

DL in PVG has taken a different tack and DL has taken a different tack in every other market where it has a JV.

DL doesn't have a JV with Kenya or Vietnam.

big difference between what AA has with QF... but you wouldn't have picked that up if someone hadn't pointed it out to you.

 

[eolesen]

Given how DL treats some of its "parters" it should be no surprise that DL wants to fly head to head even where it might not be necessary.
 
If they'd been less acrimonious towards AS, perhaps AS would have approached them about picking LAX-Mexico instead of someone else...

 

[WorldTraveler]

you really need to give up this idea that business partners are supposed to be friends.

Good business partners can become friends but just because you are friends doesn't make you good partners.

The priority for companies is on what is best for the business.

DL has very good relationships with the airlines with which if finds the most commonality.

 

[topDawg]

Given how DL treats some of its "parters" it should be no surprise that DL wants to fly head to head even where it might not be necessary.
 
If they'd been less acrimonious towards AS, perhaps AS would have approached them about picking LAX-Mexico instead of someone else...

Man oh man what a big deal it must be to start a route 6 months before Delta can start it.