DL expands SEA further with SEA-SFO flights
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Kev3188
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FWIW, they were emailed today about it. Some anodyne statements about lots of domestic flying, but nothing about the future of the base...
robbedagain
Veteran
when nw flew out of sfo to nrt did they use the 74 or the dc10 i do remember them using the dc10 (the 30) out of bos to fra or ams around 99 to 00 i remember they picked up the bos fra we had at us then they turned it to the bos-ams i think it was and they used the dc10
OP
- Dec 5, 2003
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- #19
No one is trying to pick a fight, Kev.
If Q’s comment was innocuous, then why did you feel a need to respond with:
Your defense of Q’s nostalgic opining of the freighter operation has to be seen in the context of discussions on here trying to pin the shutdown of the freighter operation on DL which has included comments such as “resistance is futile” and “just assimilate.”
If the goal of Q and your and others’ activity is simply to tout a bygone era, then I would have no problem.
What you and Q and everyone else write here is seen in the context of what you have posted year after year.
Participants no this forum, including you, can somehow manage to dredge up at least partial details about 7.5 from 20 years ago in an attempt to justify what could happen today but can’t seem to remember that DL also operated a hub at FRA that they close because it made no economic sense in the back yard of a competitor. DL operated a fleet of green 757s with Song splashed on the side but ditched that effort, regrouped, and have still managed to become the largest domestic airline in NYC – and based on their latest investor guidance are making lots of money in the domestic market, including in NYC.
There are plenty of DL people who invested enormous parts of their careers in strategies such as CVG and DFW and Song and DL Express that DL dismantled and they have managed to let it go and move forward.
NW brought a lot to the table and I have said that REPEATEDLY. NW’s strategies would have changed just as they have under DL’s mgmt as evidenced by the fact that NW didn’t have a large BOS and DCA operation or any TATL service from JFK to Scandinavia as they once did.
Forgive me if I can’t see a discussion of NW nostalgia as just one about a bygone era. If you or Q or anyone else would post an occasional positive thing about has happened at DL since the merger, you might find that your trips down memory lane could be seen for what you say they are meant to be.
DL has a large enough domestic operation at SFO and hotels are expensive enough that it probably justifies maintain a crew base there.
Also, DL apparently just received or is in the process of receiving a LOA from ALPA regarding language that the current PWA contains regarding the size of DL activity at NRT to now include HND and NRT jointly, IIRC.
With the cancellation of SEA-KIX and now SFO-NRT, DL's reduction flight activity at Japan is offset by the start of SEA-ICN and SEA-HKG which will be longer and thus greater block hours and in HKG's case on larger aircraft.
It is possible that there could be an intra-Asia segment from the NRT dropped in order to keep the hub in balance... but DL might have done that already based on reductions in beach market flying.
If Q’s comment was innocuous, then why did you feel a need to respond with:
Your defense of Q’s nostalgic opining of the freighter operation has to be seen in the context of discussions on here trying to pin the shutdown of the freighter operation on DL which has included comments such as “resistance is futile” and “just assimilate.”
If the goal of Q and your and others’ activity is simply to tout a bygone era, then I would have no problem.
What you and Q and everyone else write here is seen in the context of what you have posted year after year.
Participants no this forum, including you, can somehow manage to dredge up at least partial details about 7.5 from 20 years ago in an attempt to justify what could happen today but can’t seem to remember that DL also operated a hub at FRA that they close because it made no economic sense in the back yard of a competitor. DL operated a fleet of green 757s with Song splashed on the side but ditched that effort, regrouped, and have still managed to become the largest domestic airline in NYC – and based on their latest investor guidance are making lots of money in the domestic market, including in NYC.
There are plenty of DL people who invested enormous parts of their careers in strategies such as CVG and DFW and Song and DL Express that DL dismantled and they have managed to let it go and move forward.
NW brought a lot to the table and I have said that REPEATEDLY. NW’s strategies would have changed just as they have under DL’s mgmt as evidenced by the fact that NW didn’t have a large BOS and DCA operation or any TATL service from JFK to Scandinavia as they once did.
Forgive me if I can’t see a discussion of NW nostalgia as just one about a bygone era. If you or Q or anyone else would post an occasional positive thing about has happened at DL since the merger, you might find that your trips down memory lane could be seen for what you say they are meant to be.
DL has a large enough domestic operation at SFO and hotels are expensive enough that it probably justifies maintain a crew base there.
Also, DL apparently just received or is in the process of receiving a LOA from ALPA regarding language that the current PWA contains regarding the size of DL activity at NRT to now include HND and NRT jointly, IIRC.
With the cancellation of SEA-KIX and now SFO-NRT, DL's reduction flight activity at Japan is offset by the start of SEA-ICN and SEA-HKG which will be longer and thus greater block hours and in HKG's case on larger aircraft.
It is possible that there could be an intra-Asia segment from the NRT dropped in order to keep the hub in balance... but DL might have done that already based on reductions in beach market flying.
Kev3188
Veteran
Because the shoe fit.
One has nothing to do with the other. Your reaction to what Q wrote doesn't change his original intent.
Maybe in your universe, it does...
...Or maybe your quick dismissal of a simple look back by GQ really is indicative of how anything "Northwest" is seen on the DL property today.
Either way, maybe you had an argument ready to go and were just looking for a reason to have it, but your comments to him were out of line.
Then you should have no problem.
...And yet you just can't help yourself, can you?
It's not a quid pro quo...
OP
- Dec 5, 2003
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- #21
Kev,
Thanks for your response. I appreciate it. Really.
I am willing to accept your assessment that my response was unnecessary but are you equally willing to accept that there are some of us who are tired of the drone from the PMNW and pro-labor crowd on here about how DL is going to screw you over and how they can do nothing wrong?
Despite how and others might want to paint me, I don’t live in a world of pie in the sky and everything comes up roses. I have invested years on projects and strategic initiatives that got flushed down the drain by the company because they made no sense, even when I warned them years before they made the decision that they were failing to do what they needed to do to win in the marketplace. I have received a termination notice because the job I did wasn’t what the company needed anymore and their rigid policies harmed me. Yet, I fought back, put those events behind me and managed to walk away knowing that I had made positive contributions that were indeed appreciated.
Life isn’t fun and it isn’t fair. But it does go on. And those who can figure out how to profit from the past - good, bad, or indifferent are the ones who set the pace the rest have to follow.
No, I didn’t have any discourse ready to go just looking for a reason. But as soon as Q launched into the freighter operation which you and others have pinned on DL as a failure on their part in protecting PMNW people, then I was absolutely determined that this was not going to be turned into another DL bash fest. The simple fact is the freighter operation was losing enormous amount of money when DL and NW merged but NW left the job of shutting the operation down to DL since undoubtedly NW didn’t want to run the risk of a labor dispute over what then was a fairly large and symbolic part of NW’s operation. For DL people, the freighter operation had a whole lot less significance and the size of PMNW for whom the freighter operation was a major issue became pretty small post-merger and with the combined DL-NW workforce.
If Q had not included the freighter operation in his look to the past, then the result would have been a whole lot different.
I am not and will not allow PMNW people’s trip thru nostalgia to become a means by which you can beat down DL until you and others can admit that the freighter operation was losing money and had to be shut down one way or the other. DL just happened to be left to finish NW’s work.
If you and Q and others invested a tiny fraction of time talking about what the company is doing right, then there would be a whole lot more reason to view your complaints with the perspective you seem to want.
All I have repeatedly asked from you and others is that you view where DL is now in a balanced perspective that considers both sides of a discussion.
The same principle should apply elsewhere on this forum as well.
I am glad you are proud of what NW was and what it accomplished. You should be. As an aviation enthusiast, I have a lot of respect for what NW was and I repeatedly said that here and in other venues. My question for you is why you find it so difficult to acknowledge that DL is doing a whole lot of things right.
I am in no way opposed to you bringing up genuine concerns as long as you accurately discuss the topics you bring up – whether it be PPT, 7.5, or hub drawdowns. I am more than willing to share your pride in what NW was but I am sure not going to let you use pride in NW or any other organization as a platform for denigrating DL unless you are equally willing to consider the negatives of what NW did.
I have said before and I will say again that I want to see this forum be a place for the exchange of ideas, including those that are diverse and even contentious.
As long as you (collective) can provide accurate and balanced assessments of the topics that are discussed, then we’ll get along fine.
Specific to this discussion, DL is aggressively pursuing its strategies just as it has in NYC and other regions of the world such that they are winning over customers, investors, and their own employees with accolades which haven't been seen in the airline industry in a real long time.
Thanks for your response. I appreciate it. Really.
I am willing to accept your assessment that my response was unnecessary but are you equally willing to accept that there are some of us who are tired of the drone from the PMNW and pro-labor crowd on here about how DL is going to screw you over and how they can do nothing wrong?
Despite how and others might want to paint me, I don’t live in a world of pie in the sky and everything comes up roses. I have invested years on projects and strategic initiatives that got flushed down the drain by the company because they made no sense, even when I warned them years before they made the decision that they were failing to do what they needed to do to win in the marketplace. I have received a termination notice because the job I did wasn’t what the company needed anymore and their rigid policies harmed me. Yet, I fought back, put those events behind me and managed to walk away knowing that I had made positive contributions that were indeed appreciated.
Life isn’t fun and it isn’t fair. But it does go on. And those who can figure out how to profit from the past - good, bad, or indifferent are the ones who set the pace the rest have to follow.
No, I didn’t have any discourse ready to go just looking for a reason. But as soon as Q launched into the freighter operation which you and others have pinned on DL as a failure on their part in protecting PMNW people, then I was absolutely determined that this was not going to be turned into another DL bash fest. The simple fact is the freighter operation was losing enormous amount of money when DL and NW merged but NW left the job of shutting the operation down to DL since undoubtedly NW didn’t want to run the risk of a labor dispute over what then was a fairly large and symbolic part of NW’s operation. For DL people, the freighter operation had a whole lot less significance and the size of PMNW for whom the freighter operation was a major issue became pretty small post-merger and with the combined DL-NW workforce.
If Q had not included the freighter operation in his look to the past, then the result would have been a whole lot different.
I am not and will not allow PMNW people’s trip thru nostalgia to become a means by which you can beat down DL until you and others can admit that the freighter operation was losing money and had to be shut down one way or the other. DL just happened to be left to finish NW’s work.
If you and Q and others invested a tiny fraction of time talking about what the company is doing right, then there would be a whole lot more reason to view your complaints with the perspective you seem to want.
All I have repeatedly asked from you and others is that you view where DL is now in a balanced perspective that considers both sides of a discussion.
The same principle should apply elsewhere on this forum as well.
I am glad you are proud of what NW was and what it accomplished. You should be. As an aviation enthusiast, I have a lot of respect for what NW was and I repeatedly said that here and in other venues. My question for you is why you find it so difficult to acknowledge that DL is doing a whole lot of things right.
I am in no way opposed to you bringing up genuine concerns as long as you accurately discuss the topics you bring up – whether it be PPT, 7.5, or hub drawdowns. I am more than willing to share your pride in what NW was but I am sure not going to let you use pride in NW or any other organization as a platform for denigrating DL unless you are equally willing to consider the negatives of what NW did.
I have said before and I will say again that I want to see this forum be a place for the exchange of ideas, including those that are diverse and even contentious.
As long as you (collective) can provide accurate and balanced assessments of the topics that are discussed, then we’ll get along fine.
Specific to this discussion, DL is aggressively pursuing its strategies just as it has in NYC and other regions of the world such that they are winning over customers, investors, and their own employees with accolades which haven't been seen in the airline industry in a real long time.
Kev3188
Veteran
Kev3188
Veteran
That route has seen the 747, DC-10, A330, and 767... I may have missed other types?
OP
- Dec 5, 2003
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- #24
because being balanced and saying something positive is too difficult?
Your genuine criticisms could be considered valid if you were willing to provide a balanced perspective. Absent it, not so much.
And be assured that I really do want to hear what you have to say... but I do know enough about DL to know that there is another side that too often doesn't get presented.
While SFO may be losing a nonstop to Asia, DL is providing far more access to far more of Asia and Europe via SEA.
DL says it also has plans to continue to develop LAX int'l flying as well. So far, it is domestic growth but new flights keep coming. Based on current schedules, DL is within about 5% of AA's capacity from LAX by next summer. Add in that UA continues to pull down LAX and there is room for DL to grow in the market.
NRT is an expensive airport from which to operate for carrying connections.
Would I like to see SFO-NRT PLUS new SEA flights? Sure.
For those who are dramatizing the SFO-NRT termination as the of the NRT hub or DL's loss of position in SFO, it would do well to remember that DL still has more service to/from Tokyo than any other US airline and UA doesn't have any international service from JFK. In contrast, DL does have service from UA's hub in EWR.
The 767 for DL is like what the 757 was for CO in developing EWR TATL. Many flights will be upgraded when the right equipment and demand are matched. DL wouldn't be doing what they are doing in SEA with int'l and domestic growth if the int'l operation were not delivering at least what DL expected.
Kev3188
Veteran
Because your comments were out of line.
...And now we all get to wade through post after post of you trying to rationalize it...
I must've missed that. Can you point the board to where that's been stated?
OP
- Dec 5, 2003
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- #26
I'm rationalizing nothing, Kevin.
I am saying that your concern for being out of line might start with asking yourself again why you find it so difficult to say positive about DL given that DL employees are indeed better off than employees at any other network airline and the company is being run better than any airline has been run in decade.
I have no problem with apologizing and admitting I was wrong.
Your righteous approach, however, would carry a whole lot more weight if you were willing to accept some of the same criticism of your approach that you seem to have no trouble dishing out for others, or at least me.
I'll drop it when you write a list of 5 positive things you can say about DL.
I'll make it easy for you and let you start with 3.
And, yes, there are plenty of people who have said that the NRT hub is doomed and will be dismantled in favor of making NRT a totally spoke city. I don't see that happening.
I am saying that your concern for being out of line might start with asking yourself again why you find it so difficult to say positive about DL given that DL employees are indeed better off than employees at any other network airline and the company is being run better than any airline has been run in decade.
I have no problem with apologizing and admitting I was wrong.
Your righteous approach, however, would carry a whole lot more weight if you were willing to accept some of the same criticism of your approach that you seem to have no trouble dishing out for others, or at least me.
I'll drop it when you write a list of 5 positive things you can say about DL.
I'll make it easy for you and let you start with 3.
And, yes, there are plenty of people who have said that the NRT hub is doomed and will be dismantled in favor of making NRT a totally spoke city. I don't see that happening.
Kev3188
Veteran
Kev3188
Veteran
Sure ya are. But that's okay, we can call it flipping, projecting, a tu quoque or anything similar that suits your fancy.
WGAF? None of that has ANYTHING to do with GQ's comment.
Great. Now would be a fine time to start. I'm imagine GQ would be pleased as punch to read an apology from you.
Um, no.
Like I said earlier; posting on here doesn't require paying homage to DL...
Who are these "plenty of people?" Where in this thread can I read what these "plenty of people" have had to say?
OP
- Dec 5, 2003
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- 10,721
- Thread Starter
- #29
Yes, sir, it is about you.
More specifically, it is about the constant complaining about DL that has characterized your posts as well as those of a few others on this forum for about five years.
All you have to do to prove me wrong is to write three positive things about DL. It ain’t that difficult.
I’d even let you find three positive things you’ve said anytime over the past month.
Nobody is asking you to pay homage.
We’re asking you to be honest and balanced...
whether we are talking about PPT, pay, 7.5, or network changes.
Now, prove me wrong.
For someone who can dredge up half-sided facts about 7.5, you seem to have an uncanny ability to forget other things that have been said on this forum.
More specifically, it is about the constant complaining about DL that has characterized your posts as well as those of a few others on this forum for about five years.
All you have to do to prove me wrong is to write three positive things about DL. It ain’t that difficult.
I’d even let you find three positive things you’ve said anytime over the past month.
Nobody is asking you to pay homage.
We’re asking you to be honest and balanced...
whether we are talking about PPT, pay, 7.5, or network changes.
Now, prove me wrong.
For someone who can dredge up half-sided facts about 7.5, you seem to have an uncanny ability to forget other things that have been said on this forum.
boxer
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