LD3
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I'll start, #1, you are no longer are employeed by DL......
DL expands SEA further with SEA-SFO flights
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I'll start, #1, you are no longer are employeed by DL......
OP
- Dec 5, 2003
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- #62
there are a lot of things and people in life that disappoint us, but the vast majority of us manage to figure out how to adapt and move on.... others, not so much.
and neither is Mr. Nostalgia and then there are others on here who never were.
Meanwhile, SFO, the topic of this article, continues to see growth from DL.
OP
- Dec 5, 2003
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- #63
UA is out w/ its response and it is just as strong as it was when VX added EWR service.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/united-airlines-announces-routes-san-143500840.html
In addition to the previously known addition of LAX-MSP and SFO-ATL.....
"Additionally, on April 1, 2014, United will add a new flight between San Francisco and Seattle and will convert all of its existing service on the route to mainline aircraft. This will bring the total number of departures each way to 11, and increase the number of United's seats available on the route by more than 50 percent."
Someone is likely going to get hurt.. and my guess is the first to blink won't be AS, DL, and UA but rather VX who is most at risk w/ this build up at LAX and SFO and in a weaker financial position than the other 3.
http://finance.yahoo.com/news/united-airlines-announces-routes-san-143500840.html
In addition to the previously known addition of LAX-MSP and SFO-ATL.....
"Additionally, on April 1, 2014, United will add a new flight between San Francisco and Seattle and will convert all of its existing service on the route to mainline aircraft. This will bring the total number of departures each way to 11, and increase the number of United's seats available on the route by more than 50 percent."
Someone is likely going to get hurt.. and my guess is the first to blink won't be AS, DL, and UA but rather VX who is most at risk w/ this build up at LAX and SFO and in a weaker financial position than the other 3.
OP
- Dec 5, 2003
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This all might be DL's attempts to force the issue and finally rid the industry of VX - which will benefit AA and UA more in the near-term than DL given DL's smaller overlap with VX. DL might be looking for a larger presence in transcons outside of JFK and having VX out of the picture would make that easier.
Also, DL has the JV with VA now so they are less in a position of ticking off Sir Richard.... may be a coincidence that this all broke just after the DL-VA JV approval - or not.
Pull down of the SFO-NRT route, the SFO buildup, pilot negotiations (which were necessary because of the reduction in the size of the NRT operation), and the JV all had to come together.
OP
- Dec 5, 2003
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in the latest volley on the west coast front, participants on another site are reporting that DL has notified AS that DL is cancelling ground handling contracts with AS effective next March, right before the launch of the SEA-SFO flights.
DL supposedly ground handles AS in a number of eastern US cities including preferential gate access near DL's gates in several locations. Any confirmation on the list of cities at which DL ground handles AS AW and BW?
No word on the future of the codeshare but connections between AS and DL might not make sense if AS is forced to relocate from existing gates.
Perhaps a larger DL RJ operation at SEA is in order to provide feed to the few remaining markets that DL needs from SEA.
Seems like the salmon thirty salmon is swimming upstream into the path of a nuclear powered aircraft carrier equipped with laser guided harpoons.
DL supposedly ground handles AS in a number of eastern US cities including preferential gate access near DL's gates in several locations. Any confirmation on the list of cities at which DL ground handles AS AW and BW?
No word on the future of the codeshare but connections between AS and DL might not make sense if AS is forced to relocate from existing gates.
Perhaps a larger DL RJ operation at SEA is in order to provide feed to the few remaining markets that DL needs from SEA.
Seems like the salmon thirty salmon is swimming upstream into the path of a nuclear powered aircraft carrier equipped with laser guided harpoons.
Kev3188
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Source? Seems like a lot of hearsay at this point. Nothing noted internally that I've seen...
Maybe it's something, maybe it's not...
OP
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Of course it is a rumor that DL and AS are cancelling ground contracts but DL and other companies don’t necessarily provide public updates or to their employees regarding contractual relations and certainly not to employees six months in advance.
Within the context of DL’s actions on the west coast including with AS, the move does seem plausible.
For years, DL has focused on the east coast, pulling down a lot of north-south flying on the west coast after the Western merger. DL has made several efforts to grow LAX, but they largely kept DL at the same percentage size in the market relative to its peers – not real growth.
DL clearly is ready to focus on increasing its presence on the west coast, esp. in LAX and SEA which DL has identified as two of the four corners that it wants to establish as the keys of its int’l route network.
The DOJ’s actions against AS plus DL’s profitability make it less and less necessary for DL to buy AS in order to achieve its strategic goals. DL has already announced or is flying many of the top markets from SEA many of which also happen to be the top US origins for traffic to Asia.
AS, AA, and UA are all “in the way” of DL’s expansion at LAX and SEA based on their historic market positions.
AA is focused on its merger which will be costly even if it is absolutely strategically necessary for them to not give up any share in LAX as they have done in NYC. UA’s revenue performance is just not on par with what DL is generating and UA’s costs are increasing far faster than the rest of the industry. DL obviously has a clear size advantage over AS even though AS has lower costs and a loyal following on the west coast.
It also appears that DL’s fuel costs are now coming in below other carriers based on the latest traffic and operational press releases for AA, DL , and UA which include estimates of their fuel prices.
If the refinery is now paying off in terms of lower fuel prices, then DL is very well-positioned on top of its already lower costs and higher revenue generating capability to be much more aggressive in pushing into key strategic markets where DL is not strong. It isn’t too difficult to see that those markets are on the west coast, in Texas, and from Florida to Latin America. If DL is now turning its focus to the west coast and might later address those other areas in the next few quarters (quite possibly also as the Wright Amendment and restrictive bilateral in Latin America fall), then DL might be on the verge of internally correcting its own network deficiencies and do it before other carriers are capable of making their own strategic moves.
It is not necessarily clear how this will all play out but anyone who doesn’t see what DL intends to do or recognize that they are very capable of achieving their strategic objectives simply doesn’t want to see it – because the face of NYC, a far larger and more competitive market, has dramatically changed because of DL’s moves in just the past five years. In fact, it is very likely that the profits that DL is now generating in NYC and in ATL where WN has chosen to grow are helping fund DL’s growth in the west.
One strategic move well-executed begets another.
Within the context of DL’s actions on the west coast including with AS, the move does seem plausible.
For years, DL has focused on the east coast, pulling down a lot of north-south flying on the west coast after the Western merger. DL has made several efforts to grow LAX, but they largely kept DL at the same percentage size in the market relative to its peers – not real growth.
DL clearly is ready to focus on increasing its presence on the west coast, esp. in LAX and SEA which DL has identified as two of the four corners that it wants to establish as the keys of its int’l route network.
The DOJ’s actions against AS plus DL’s profitability make it less and less necessary for DL to buy AS in order to achieve its strategic goals. DL has already announced or is flying many of the top markets from SEA many of which also happen to be the top US origins for traffic to Asia.
AS, AA, and UA are all “in the way” of DL’s expansion at LAX and SEA based on their historic market positions.
AA is focused on its merger which will be costly even if it is absolutely strategically necessary for them to not give up any share in LAX as they have done in NYC. UA’s revenue performance is just not on par with what DL is generating and UA’s costs are increasing far faster than the rest of the industry. DL obviously has a clear size advantage over AS even though AS has lower costs and a loyal following on the west coast.
It also appears that DL’s fuel costs are now coming in below other carriers based on the latest traffic and operational press releases for AA, DL , and UA which include estimates of their fuel prices.
If the refinery is now paying off in terms of lower fuel prices, then DL is very well-positioned on top of its already lower costs and higher revenue generating capability to be much more aggressive in pushing into key strategic markets where DL is not strong. It isn’t too difficult to see that those markets are on the west coast, in Texas, and from Florida to Latin America. If DL is now turning its focus to the west coast and might later address those other areas in the next few quarters (quite possibly also as the Wright Amendment and restrictive bilateral in Latin America fall), then DL might be on the verge of internally correcting its own network deficiencies and do it before other carriers are capable of making their own strategic moves.
It is not necessarily clear how this will all play out but anyone who doesn’t see what DL intends to do or recognize that they are very capable of achieving their strategic objectives simply doesn’t want to see it – because the face of NYC, a far larger and more competitive market, has dramatically changed because of DL’s moves in just the past five years. In fact, it is very likely that the profits that DL is now generating in NYC and in ATL where WN has chosen to grow are helping fund DL’s growth in the west.
One strategic move well-executed begets another.
Kev3188
Veteran
Nor would I expect them to (though DL does have an "insourcing" page within it's company website). That said, if it was coming to pass, you'd expect word to get out in at least one of the stations involved-and there's about a dozen- would you not?
All I'm saying is that it could be something...or it could be much ado about nothing.
Either way, the howler monkeys at the other site never let that get in the way of a good thread.
JFK Fleet Service
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OP
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yes, you are correct that drama is the focus of "that site."
in time if it is true, it will become apparent.
However, it is a given that DL is going to have to push against some well-entrenched rivals to do what it needs to do on the left coast. There probably is a reason why they haven't jumped in to tackle that battle until the stars are all aligned in DL's favor.
---
as of right now, the DL forum is seeing plenty of activity esp. considering that some topics are off limits because of discussion regarding other airlines because of the sensitivity of some people to those subjects.
It is good for all and the site to have spirited, respectful discussions as are happening today.
in time if it is true, it will become apparent.
However, it is a given that DL is going to have to push against some well-entrenched rivals to do what it needs to do on the left coast. There probably is a reason why they haven't jumped in to tackle that battle until the stars are all aligned in DL's favor.
---
as of right now, the DL forum is seeing plenty of activity esp. considering that some topics are off limits because of discussion regarding other airlines because of the sensitivity of some people to those subjects.
It is good for all and the site to have spirited, respectful discussions as are happening today.
topDawg
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- Nov 23, 2010
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Losing someone the size of AS would likely make waves. DL handles them at an ass ton of stations.
on another note, chillax WT. DL simply doesn't have the space, nor does SEA, for Delta to do much more adding. The overflow operations on B will now basically become normal operation.
having said that, man its easy to get a job for Delta in SEA right now. Bunch of people leaving to make AMT.
OP
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I don't believe I ever said that DL would or could turn SEA into a full-fledged hub on the scale of JFK. But DL clearly has had plenty of success in adding new flights, both domestically and internationally including in markets like LAX-SEA where DL operated multiple mainline domestic flights even where those flights didn't connect with DL international flights - and the flights were full. Now, we all know that full flights don't equate to profitable flights but given that pricing is strong in the US and SEA has good pricing thanks to AS' hub, it is likely not hard for DL grow. The 717 is physically not that larger than an E170/175 which DL is using in SEA but the 717 carries more people. DL also has the ability to upgrade existing mainline flights such as on the 738 to the new 739s. DL does have options to grow SEA.
I didn't both that DL is trying to fully replicate everything AS does but they do intend to have a presence in the top markets and perhaps add more flights beyond there. I don't know all of the ins and outs of the physical operation at SEA, but it isn't beyond the realm of possibility that DL is working with SEA to create more capacity, possibly including a remote RJ operation; those types of things exist at other airports. If DL has determined it needs to grow SEA and the port wants DL's growth, there will be solutions found to make that happen. Even if DL is nearing its capacity short-term, SEA will find ways to accommodate DL longer term.
Keep in mind that even though AS has multiples more flights than DL, DL still is the solid #2 at SEA and carries 70% of AS' revenue because of the value of the int'l flights. DL is not the also ran in SEA that some would like to think.
I have no idea what is behind the falling out between AS and DL but DL clearly wants an exclusive relationship with AS and AS is also running high enough load factors on its own flights that DL cannot get the seats on AS that DL needs to feed its int'l flights and it shouldn't be a surprise that DL is turning to another plan to ensure its int'l flights are properly fed.
DL's latest move seems to say that intend to vigorously compete in the largest SEA domestic markets. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/delta-offers-double-miles-seattle-150000949.html
As for the impact that AS' ending of ground handling with DL would have, AS' service in most cities east of the Rockies is 2 flights per day. DL is adding that much capacity or more in most of those cities because industry capacity is rising again because AA and US are doing so in order to increase their own network footprint. Some of the cities that AS serves such as ATL and MSP probably wouldn't work for AS without DL feed at DL's hubs.
DL has made it clear that SEA will be a major city in DL's network going forward. The 767 and 330 are not traditional transpac aircraft but DL is successfully using them to open markets in the same way that CO used the 757 to quickly build a transatlantic network at EWR at costs that allow DL to very effectively compete with other carriers. DL also has strong partners in China and Korea (DL still codeshares beyond ICN on KE) as well as its own operation in Japan which isn't going away.
The other part of this puzzle is that DL and AS share gates at LAX yet DL has preferential use agreements over AS for some of those gates because DL helped pay for part of the remodeling of T6 at LAX. DL has the ability to significantly hurt AS at LAX if the two of them can't resolve the issues or if DL decides it needs to grow LAX on its own.
DL people are benefitting from DL's growth at SEA and there will be more.
I didn't both that DL is trying to fully replicate everything AS does but they do intend to have a presence in the top markets and perhaps add more flights beyond there. I don't know all of the ins and outs of the physical operation at SEA, but it isn't beyond the realm of possibility that DL is working with SEA to create more capacity, possibly including a remote RJ operation; those types of things exist at other airports. If DL has determined it needs to grow SEA and the port wants DL's growth, there will be solutions found to make that happen. Even if DL is nearing its capacity short-term, SEA will find ways to accommodate DL longer term.
Keep in mind that even though AS has multiples more flights than DL, DL still is the solid #2 at SEA and carries 70% of AS' revenue because of the value of the int'l flights. DL is not the also ran in SEA that some would like to think.
I have no idea what is behind the falling out between AS and DL but DL clearly wants an exclusive relationship with AS and AS is also running high enough load factors on its own flights that DL cannot get the seats on AS that DL needs to feed its int'l flights and it shouldn't be a surprise that DL is turning to another plan to ensure its int'l flights are properly fed.
DL's latest move seems to say that intend to vigorously compete in the largest SEA domestic markets. http://finance.yahoo.com/news/delta-offers-double-miles-seattle-150000949.html
As for the impact that AS' ending of ground handling with DL would have, AS' service in most cities east of the Rockies is 2 flights per day. DL is adding that much capacity or more in most of those cities because industry capacity is rising again because AA and US are doing so in order to increase their own network footprint. Some of the cities that AS serves such as ATL and MSP probably wouldn't work for AS without DL feed at DL's hubs.
DL has made it clear that SEA will be a major city in DL's network going forward. The 767 and 330 are not traditional transpac aircraft but DL is successfully using them to open markets in the same way that CO used the 757 to quickly build a transatlantic network at EWR at costs that allow DL to very effectively compete with other carriers. DL also has strong partners in China and Korea (DL still codeshares beyond ICN on KE) as well as its own operation in Japan which isn't going away.
The other part of this puzzle is that DL and AS share gates at LAX yet DL has preferential use agreements over AS for some of those gates because DL helped pay for part of the remodeling of T6 at LAX. DL has the ability to significantly hurt AS at LAX if the two of them can't resolve the issues or if DL decides it needs to grow LAX on its own.
DL people are benefitting from DL's growth at SEA and there will be more.
robbedagain
Veteran
im actually surprised theyre not buildin up pdx as they are sea. why is that? besides sea being the closet to asia from the mainland
OP
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SEA is a larger city and int'l travel market. There are a lot of big companies in the SEA area and DL is winning over their int'l business as part of their buildup at SEA including Microsoft. Some of the domestic routes are undoubtedly to help win some of that corporate traffic within the US. PDX has some good corporate traffic but DL already provides TATL and TPAC service from PDX and it is likely they can continue to retain that business. Some PDX traffic might choose to fly DL nonstop from SEA but the chances are fairly high that DL can maintain its presence in PDX as long as there is some sort of hub at NRT.
DL is supposedly also pursuing a codeshare in Japan with Skymark which could help DL distribute traffic in Japan.
Even if DL and AS end their codesharing completely, there will still be some connections that will continue between the two. Airlines have long had interline agreements. Alliances and codeshares just created preferential relationships but DL carries passengers to BA's US gateways as part of interline agreements, just as AF carries AA TATL passengers beyond CDG, etc..... DL's domestic buildup at SEA ensures that DL is less dependent on AS and DL probably can carry the traffic in the largest markets at lower prices than what AS wants, given that AS' revenue management strategies are probably requiring DL to pay upper level prices for seats on AS flights. DL not only controls more of its own revenue and pays a lower price for its int'l connecting traffic but also partly pays for that increased int'l feed by competing in the domestic market which was not originally a primary goal for DL.
Even if AS eventually becomes an exclusive partner in the US to AA, AA's TPAC presence is not focused where AS can help AA a great deal to Asia so strategically DL has probably considered that there is little to be lost from pushing AS to deliver what DL wants or walk away from the relationship.
DL is supposedly also pursuing a codeshare in Japan with Skymark which could help DL distribute traffic in Japan.
Even if DL and AS end their codesharing completely, there will still be some connections that will continue between the two. Airlines have long had interline agreements. Alliances and codeshares just created preferential relationships but DL carries passengers to BA's US gateways as part of interline agreements, just as AF carries AA TATL passengers beyond CDG, etc..... DL's domestic buildup at SEA ensures that DL is less dependent on AS and DL probably can carry the traffic in the largest markets at lower prices than what AS wants, given that AS' revenue management strategies are probably requiring DL to pay upper level prices for seats on AS flights. DL not only controls more of its own revenue and pays a lower price for its int'l connecting traffic but also partly pays for that increased int'l feed by competing in the domestic market which was not originally a primary goal for DL.
Even if AS eventually becomes an exclusive partner in the US to AA, AA's TPAC presence is not focused where AS can help AA a great deal to Asia so strategically DL has probably considered that there is little to be lost from pushing AS to deliver what DL wants or walk away from the relationship.
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