DL looking at buying an oil refinery?

Leaked information CAN but not necessarily is meant to push an agenda...
Not necessarily, but usually is meant to further an agenda. That's because it's usually one side that's responsible for the majority of leaks, and that side has an agenda to push. So you mostly get the "this idea is great" without the "But what about...". Just look at this subject - the leaks all make it sound like a potentially good deal while those publicly arguing the other side are identified by name. If those named sources have an agenda, it should be relatively obvious from who they are or who they represent. No so with un-named sources.

Jim
 
Regardless what the pros and cons of the deal are,you can expect gas to reach $5 within a year. They are already saying it will be at $4.50 by Memorial Day.

Even if this refinery produces 0% jetfuel, anything it does produce is sure to be a profit. One way or another, Delta's plan makes sense to offset any type of rising fuel cost.

Again, only time will tell who is right on this one, but I'm guessing Delta knows something that the general public doesn't.
 
Regardless what the pros and cons of the deal are,you can expect gas to reach $5 within a year. They are already saying it will be at $4.50 by Memorial Day.
No argument from me. Oil will probably continue to climb in price. In Los Angeles, where I live, gas has been north of $4/gal for the last several months. Today I filled up with premium (supercharged engine) and paid $4.59/gal.

Even if this refinery produces 0% jetfuel, anything it does produce is sure to be a profit. One way or another, Delta's plan makes sense to offset any type of rising fuel cost.
"Sure to be a profit?" Really? Even though its owner, ConocoPhillips, one of the big bad greedy profit-seeking oil companies closed the Trainer facility because it had become a money-loser? That giant refinery in St Croix (one of the largest in the USA) was closed a few weeks ago for the same reason.

If the price of corn is rising rapidly, does that guarantee that a corn syrup factory is sure to make a profit? If raw milk prices are increasing, does that ensure that a dairy is sure to make a profit? If the price of scrap steel is rising, does that mean that a steel mill will be profitable? The answer, of course, is "no." Same with an oil refinery.

Again, only time will tell who is right on this one, but I'm guessing Delta knows something that the general public doesn't.
Again, no argument from me about the bolded part. Doesn't matter what the general public knows or doesn't know. For this purchase to make any sense, Delta would have to know something about oil refining that ConocoPhillips doesn't, and if you believe that to be true, well, you may need to get out of the heat for a while.
 
No argument from me. Oil will probably continue to climb in price. In Los Angeles, where I live, gas has been north of $4/gal for the last several months. Today I filled up with premium (supercharged engine) and paid $4.59/gal.


"Sure to be a profit?" Really? Even though its owner, ConocoPhillips, one of the big bad greedy profit-seeking oil companies closed the Trainer facility because it had become a money-loser? That giant refinery in St Croix (one of the largest in the USA) was closed a few weeks ago for the same reason.

If the price of corn is rising rapidly, does that guarantee that a corn syrup factory is sure to make a profit? If raw milk prices are increasing, does that ensure that a dairy is sure to make a profit? If the price of scrap steel is rising, does that mean that a steel mill will be profitable? The answer, of course, is "no." Same with an oil refinery.


Again, no argument from me about the bolded part. Doesn't matter what the general public knows or doesn't know. For this purchase to make any sense, Delta would have to know something about oil refining that ConocoPhillips doesn't, and if you believe that to be true, well, you may need to get out of the heat for a while.
All this opposed as to buying say the BP oil rigg? Yet BP is still strong.

Hmmm...lets wait for history to write itself.
 
this article says DL could gain a 10% savings on fuel... based on the numbers in the article, the refinery could provide (directly through jet fuel refined there plus the products which DL could swap for jet fuel) between half and 2/3 of DL's jet fuel needs... if there really is 10% savings, that is an ENORMOUS cost advantage DL could have... worth far more than any of the most aggressive estimates raised so far - potentially north of $500M per year.
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http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-11/delta-said-to-seek-10-fuel-savings-with-conocophillips-refinery.html?cmpid=yhoo

This is obviously a very complex deal but if the potential exists to obtain those kinds of savings, it is no wonder DL is pursuing the deal - and finding other parties who are willing to help make it happen.
 
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Earlier in this thread, WT mentioned a possible purchase price of $100 million or so plus modernization upgrades of maybe another $100 million - I have no idea if those figures are accurate, but they'll do for this post.

If DL can invest a couple hundred million dollars in a refinery and reduce its fuel costs by something north of $500 million annually, then DL should liquidate the airline and buy all the refineries it can. Why? A $500 million annual profit on a $200 million investment is far and away better than any airline will ever produce (even king of the world Delta). That's an annual return of 250% or more on invested capital.

DL and JP Morgan stand to earn tens of billions of dollars if DL were to invest $20 billion or $30 billion in refineries, if the potential earnings are scalable. Why run an airline if DL and JP Morgan can earn upwards of $50 billion to $75 billion annually on an investment of $20 billion to $30 billion? Looks like there's more money to be made in refining oil into jet fuel, diesel, home heating oil, gasoline and all the other products than there is in flying airplanes.
 
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except that DL would not retain those benefits if it were a producer.... the reason why the deal has the potential to make sense is because DL is a producer and also a consumer - and precisely because refineries produce products which DL doesn't need. Oil producers don't care about jet fuel.. they care about profits. If DL can get jet fuel at producer costs and swap gasoline etc which it doesn't need with parties that are focused on making money on gasoline while DL gets lower cost jet fuel.
IOW, all the reasons why people argued it didn't make sense are exactly the reasons it does.
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Deal or no deal, DL execs will have to address it on the earnings call soon.
 
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this article says DL could gain a 10% savings on fuel... based on the numbers in the article, the refinery could provide (directly through jet fuel refined there plus the products which DL could swap for jet fuel) between half and 2/3 of DL's jet fuel needs... if there really is 10% savings, that is an ENORMOUS cost advantage DL could have... worth far more than any of the most aggressive estimates raised so far - potentially north of $500M per year.
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http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2012-04-11/delta-said-to-seek-10-fuel-savings-with-conocophillips-refinery.html?cmpid=yhoo

This is obviously a very complex deal but if the potential exists to obtain those kinds of savings, it is no wonder DL is pursuing the deal - and finding other parties who are willing to help make it happen.

I think the article more accurately states that DL could gain a 10% savings on a portion of its fuel needs.

The question should then be: could DL find a sucker to swap the non-jet fuel products from this facility for jet fuel profitably?

DL for now appears to be a finely managed airline. But you have to wonder why other airlines have not purchased their own refinery? Could it be that others have actually studied the option and decided it was not worth it?

The article also mentions a number of negative factors of operating a refinery in the US northeast, which WT seems to either ignore or believe with all his heart that DL could overcome because they're the greatest corp. Ever!
 
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Yeah, I have been tired lately from work and moving and I probably should explain what I was trying to say.

Since people think this ConocoPhilips is a disaster, I would wonder what if Delta or another party was to buy the BP ring and go for the crude oil. Although it's something totally out of left field, what Delta is doing will determine if it's a good or bad idea in the future because nobody really knows the outcome.
 
This article confirms that DL has indeed acquired talent in the energy trading and petroleum business including at C-P which might explain why DL's hedges have proven to be a bit more successful than its peers of late.

http://finance.fortune.cnn.com/2012/04/12/delta-oil-refinery/?source=yahoo_quote

But the article also notes that this whole exercise could be one more step in DL's efforts to either become a player in the energy production and trading business since Congress has not done anything to limit speculation.
Note that the article says that Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley have owned physical assets in the energy business including production facilities as part of their efforts to gain a strategic upper hand. Those institutions are financial institutions, not involved in energy yet they have figured out how to make it work.

What is similar with this effort by DL is the same as what they are doing w/ the ExIm Bank in that DL is trying to find solutions to industry structural problems such as subsidies for purchases of aircraft by foreign airlines as well as speculating activities and petroleum prices beyond the airline industry's ability to correct with traditional approaches.
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Since no deal has even been finalized - or at least released - no one can assess whether the refinery deal makes sense... and even then no one will be in a position to know if it will work because it is so outside of what has been done in the past.
 
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The risks outweigh the benefits for the employees. If the refinery buy is a success, you'll continue to see industry standard. If it is a bust, you WILL feel the pain. Just keepin' it real!
 
More skepticism here.

From the article (emphasis added): "...There must be something else at work that would make Delta and presumably other carriers so desperate they're willing to enter the refinery business. After all, it's a tough business -- even for oil companies.

Two thoughts come to mind specifically about Delta: a) its geographic concentration, and B] its credit rating, which stinks, may be so bad the airline can't cost effectively hedge in the open markets."


Putting on the tin foil hat for a moment, I wonder if this whole scheme is part of what sent Halter running for the exits?

Furthermore, with the above in mind, maybe this isn't some sort of forward thinking move some have made it out to be, but rather an attempt to stay in the hedging game at all?
 
More skepticism here.

From the article (emphasis added): "...There must be something else at work that would make Delta and presumably other carriers so desperate they're willing to enter the refinery business. After all, it's a tough business -- even for oil companies.

Two thoughts come to mind specifically about Delta: a) its geographic concentration, and B] its credit rating, which stinks, may be so bad the airline can't cost effectively hedge in the open markets."


Putting on the tin foil hat for a moment, I wonder if this whole scheme is part of what sent Halter running for the exits?

Furthermore, with the above in mind, maybe this isn't some sort of forward thinking move some have made it out to be, but rather an attempt to stay in the hedging game at all?
It is highly possible that Halter did not agree with the direction DL wanted to take its fuel management process. There are clearly risks and no one including me has denied that.
There is a difference between acknowledging risks and deciding owning a refinery doesn't make sense when no one including the analysts writing against the deal know the structure of the deal at all. It is impossible to know if the deal will make sense.
And there will be people who will be skeptical even after the deal is announced. That is the nature of the world and the people who live in it.
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I don't think there is any reason to believe that DL can't continue to be a hedger... but they clearly would rather have more control over the process.... sometimes you win hedges, sometimes you don't - and that applies to both sides.
DL's credit rating is about mid-term for airlines... which isn't great... but DL's hedges have recently been more effective than WN's who has a higher credit rating.
Coming to the assumption because shorts on DL stock are some of the lowest in the industry so Wall Street now is trying to engineer a deal that will bring DL down and allow WS to gain is a little far fetched.
Since DL is supposedly building the deal (according to those same "leaked" media reports) around swapping non-jet fuel products for jet fuel and the east coast is a net importer as a region for refined petroleum products (thus the huge Colonial pipeline), then it would seem that restoring refining capacity closer to the locations where petroleum is used would be a net benefit for DL.
I don't think anyone believes that even at optimum production, the Trainer refinery could produce more jet fuel than NYC and the regions NE of the refinery consume.
There is a clear reality that when DL, the largest consumer of jet fuel in the world, starts moving into the arena of producers and gains the intellectual capacity to improve its own hedges relative to the industry that other players start asking questions if maybe they should allow DL to redefine the game.
IOW, are they better off letting DL into the production game instead of having them continue to argue against speculation or allow them to acquire the knowledge to compete very effectively against the counterparties in its hedges?
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When you're talking tens of billions of dollars, you don't just keep writing check after check w/o asking if things can't be done better.... and I'm not sure alot of people who are commenting about the merits of the parts of the deal that have been leaked have anywhere near the background on this situation to know if both sides don't recognize there is a benefit in changing the paradigm from simply "you as a big airline should just send us billions of dollars every year and not ask questions."
 
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