DL to suspend SEA-HND Flights

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WorldTraveler said:
you might have read the 310-300s stats in some book but I can absolutely assure you that they could not - even the new build versions - make it from many of the Europe cities on which DL used them to JFK, CVG, and DTW in any kind of heavy wind and diversions.  I worked AND rode on enough 310s to know that the 767 is and always will be far more aircraft than the 310 could ever dream of.
 
I have no idea what routes DL tried to use the A310s on or what the cabin configuration was. 
But to state that the DL aircraft could not fly the JFK-Europe routes is a little strange.
I do know that (as mentioned by eolesen) OK used their A310s on PRG-YYZ and PRG-JFK which is about 4000 miles. 
But I also know that QN and 2T used A310s on YYZ-Europe summer charters and they did have to make a stop westbound.  I have no idea whether it was a natural routing or something that was technically needed.
 
WorldTraveler said:
you might have read the 310-300s stats in some book but I can absolutely assure you that they could not - even the new build versions - make it from many of the Europe cities on which DL used them to JFK, CVG, and DTW in any kind of heavy wind without diversions.  I worked AND rode on enough 310s to know that the 767 is and always will be far superior aircraft than the 310 could ever dream to be.
 
The 330, OTOH, is an outstanding aircraft.  
 
I don't think there is a DL 310-300 that was ever in the air for more than 10 hours.  763ERs regularly go past 12 hours IN THE AIR. 
 
thanks for the seat counts.
 
LAX-HKG was one of DL's bigger mistakes by using an aircraft that couldn't operate the route no matter how cheap it was to acquire.
so You are now smarter than Airbus? Okay WT, whatever you have to tell yourself. 
 
the A310-300 has a range of 5,300nm. (Delta also had a lower cabin config compared to PA) 
 
and FWIW I worked on the 310s too. 
 
*edit, WT you would be wrong once again. Delta ran CLE-DET-LGW-FRA with an A310. (and CLE-DTW-LGW before they started the FRA-LGW tag) 
 
 
FrugalFlyerv2.0 said:
 
I have no idea what routes DL tried to use the A310s on or what the cabin configuration was. 
But to state that the DL aircraft could not fly the JFK-Europe routes is a little strange.
I do know that (as mentioned by eolesen) OK used their A310s on PRG-YYZ and PRG-JFK which is about 4000 miles. 
But I also know that QN and 2T used A310s on YYZ-Europe summer charters and they did have to make a stop westbound.  I have no idea whether it was a natural routing or something that was technically needed.
Delta did too. routes like JFK-TXL were regular on the 310. 
 
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I worked the diversions that couldn't stay aloft even 9 1/2 hours. Calculate a flight plan for a 5300 mile and tell me how many hours it needs to stay along. Unless you worked in Flight Control, as a pilot, or in Operations (above or below wing) you have no idea how the plane actually did in real service.

Find me a flight that stayed aloft on A310-300 for more than 10 hours with standard passengers (which would mean a 10.30 hour or more flight) let alone the 12.5 hour flights that are common on DL 767-300ERs.

The A310 is simply no comparison to the 763ER.

The simple fact is that DL, not me, dumped the A310s. The economics didn't work and neither did the performance.

The fact that Airbus did as good of a job on the 330 and DL has bought it says volumes about the improvements Airbus made.
 
Delta said it’s studying American’s filing, “which appears to have no merit.”

“We are fully compliant with the DOT’s conditions regarding the use of Haneda frequencies,” Trebor Banstetter, a Delta spokesman, said in an e-mail. Reducing flights between some cities on a seasonal basis is a widespread practice among airlines, he said.

someone forgot to tell AA that they bid for JFK-HND, it didn't work, and they stopped it.

they had their chance and blew it.
 
WorldTraveler said:
someone forgot to tell AA that they bid for JFK-HND, it didn't work, and they stopped it.

they had their chance and blew it.
By that logic:

Someone forgot to tell DL that they had a Pacific hub in PDX; it didn't work, and they dismantled it. They had their chance and blew it.


What happened at JFK is at not all relevant to what could happen at LAX. There's no comparison when you consider the time differences, greater availability of domestic connections without backtracking, and the more favorable demographics on the West Coast vs. East Coast.
 
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as usual your logic is convoluted.

DL's PDX hub didn't involve holding onto traffic rights which they couldn't make work

There wasn't a single traffic right that DL tried to hold onto from either its PDX or LAX hubs.

When it said it was thru trying to make west coast-Asia flying work, it walked away.

and then merged with NW who had a viable west coast - Asia network centered on NRT which DL used until it became apparent DL needed to develop SEA as a hub.

In contrast, AA failed at HND, DL and NH were awarded rights, AA is trying for the 3rd time to try to win LAX-HND slots - which its own partner decided wasn't worth pursuing from the Japan side - and there is no basis for AA to win the award.

At worst case, all DL has to do is operate a few SEA-HND flights (even one) to make sure not more than 90 days passes and the route never goes dormant.
 
WorldTraveler said:
Delta said it’s studying American’s filing, “which appears to have no merit.”“We are fully compliant with the DOT’s conditions regarding the use of Haneda frequencies,” Trebor Banstetter, a Delta spokesman, said in an e-mail. Reducing flights between some cities on a seasonal basis is a widespread practice among airlines, he said.someone forgot to tell AA that they bid for JFK-HND, it didn't work, and they stopped it.they had their chance and blew it.
And DL tried both DTW and SEA and they didn't work, LAX doesn't exactly look like a stellar performer. The reason DL was awarded LAX over AA is when they applied in May 2010 they filed to use the higher capacity 744s over AAs low density 772s, and of course DL quickly adjusted capacity to 772 then 332 and now 763s.

Josh
 
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DL carries more revenue on LAX-HND than AA carries on either of its two LAX routes.

Yes, it works. in fact I could go thru AA's entire Pacific route system and calculate it but I would strongly bet that each of DL's two HND routes carry more revenue that the majority of AA's Pacific routes

Regardless of the reason DL was awarded the route, it is DL's and there is no legal basis for AA to get the route.

and a major reason why the DOT awarded two routes to DL was to maintain balance between the 3 carriers in Tokyo. AA and UA both have JV partners and access to HND thru them as well as hubs at NRT, which all 3 US carriers, either on their own (DL) or via a JV partner.

That hasn't changed.

Further, AA carries 40% less revenue per passenger than DL on LAX-NRT, a route both serve along with a half dozen other airlines.

AA can't successfully make money flying to Asia; giving away key industry routes isn't going to change that.

AA and UA managed to get JV's with their Japanese partners in return for the horribly timed access to HND which was given to US carriers and both have continued to shrink their operations in Japan while not being able to chip away at DL's dominance of the US- Japan market.

transferring a valid route from DL, who does a very good job of competing against the two JVs, to a carrier who has lost money flying to Asia for years won't improve anything.
 
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WT again clearly DL has tried and similarly failed at HND. With the pull down of NRT flying I imagine if anything DLs performance on the NRT routes will further deteriorate. You said before the underperforming JFK route was the driver for the TLV downgauge, since the NRT aircraft stages for TLV at JFK. Is DL similarly walking away from all those JFK-NRT/TLV passengers like you said AA did in the transcon market?

Josh
 
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the route is DL's. AA has tried before and won't get it. DL knew what it was doing and still does.


give it up.

and, no, DL is rerouting the JFK-Asia passengers over SEA instead of NRT.

DL is operating TLV based on the level of demand that is there.
 
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