Exec: Delta Unprepared for Pilots' Strike (AP)

[DAL_Scope]

Delta Air Lines Inc., which lost $2.6 billion in the first nine months of this year, needs the $3 billion in annual cost savings from its reorganization plan to survive, chief financial officer Edward Bastian told a bankruptcy court on Monday.

http://us.rd.yahoo.com/finance/news/rss/st...ptcy.html?.v=10

 

[NewHampshire Black Bears]

Delta Air Lines Inc., which lost $2.6 billion in the first nine months of this year, needs the $3 billion in annual cost savings from its reorganization plan to survive, chief financial officer Edward Bastian told a bankruptcy court on Monday.

http://us.rd.yahoo.com/finance/news/rss/st...ptcy.html?.v=10

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

DALPA's lawyer "caught" DL Management PADDING the projected fuel costs by $100 Million, as they TRY to get Judge Beatty to break DALPA's contract.

In addition, she said that DL management SHOULD NOT have spent LOTS of money, buying back stock,
AND
She said granting DL's "desperate plea" to THROW OUT their contract "REEK's" of Union Busting !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If EVER there was a time to "stand up to" these GREEDY INCOMPETENT CORPERATE BAS***DS, IT's NOW !!
And that means letting DL know, IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that DALPA WILL "STRIKE" !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sometimes it not easy, or pleasant to have a "BACKBONE" !!

Good luck DALPA !!!!!!

NH/BB's

**Edited By Moderator**​

 

[mdarules]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

DALPA's lawyer "caught" DL Management PADDING the projected fuel costs by $100 Million, as they TRY to get Judge Beatty to break DALPA's contract.

In addition, she said that DL management SHOULD NOT have spent LOTS of money, buying back stock,
AND
She said granting DL's "desperate plea" to THROW OUT their contract "REEK's" of Union Busting !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If EVER there was a time to "stand up to" these GREEDY INCOMPETENT CORPERATE BAS***DS, IT's NOW !!
And that means letting DL know, IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that DALPA WILL "STRIKE" !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sometimes it not easy, or pleasant to have a "BACKBONE" !!

Good luck DALPA !!!!!!

NH/BB's

**Edited By Moderator**​

I second that!!
Good Luck, DON'T BACK DOWN,
SHOW THEM WHO'S BOSS!!!

 

[dc3fanatic]

DALPA's lawyer "caught" DL Management PADDING the projected fuel costs by $100 Million, as they TRY to get Judge Beatty to break DALPA's contract.

That could just mean the fuel curve was 2 weeks old. 100M in fuel is pretty small variance these days. I don't think they were 'caught' with anything.

I bet that if you 'stand against the man', you will see the company fold. good luck. It sure didn't work out for the NWA mechanics, as far as I can tell . . . they are fully replaced. Instead of replacement, fold.

 

[DLFlyer31]

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

DALPA's lawyer "caught" DL Management PADDING the projected fuel costs by $100 Million, as they TRY to get Judge Beatty to break DALPA's contract.

**Edited By Moderator**​

Earlier this year, DALPA accused management of poor planning because they didn't forecast fuel costs high enough. Now DALPA accuses management of forecasting fuel too high.

What happens if we have a really brutal winter and fuel prices spike? What will DALPA's excuse be then?

If it wasn't for the other employees sake, I would say let the pilots strike and shut Delta down. The industry would be better off and the DL pilots would find out how the real world works.

 

[Ch. 12]

DALPA's lawyer "caught" DL Management PADDING the projected fuel costs by $100 Million, as they TRY to get Judge Beatty to break DALPA's contract.

How in the world do you know that a PROJECTION (note...that word means estimating something in the future) is too high or too low until the period for which you are projecting has passed? That is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard. But I guess your only intent is to try to incite a riot so rational thought does not play in...

In addition, she said that DL management SHOULD NOT have spent LOTS of money, buying back stock,

Hindsight...ain't it wonderful? Mesa Airlines is currently buying back stock b/c they are profitable and it is a rational decision in profitable times. Now if Mesa begins to struggle over the next few years, we can all go back and say "gee...wish they wouldn't have bought back that stock b/c some extra cash would be nice right now" but it is the right choice for a point in time. Again...an idiotic statement.

AND
She said granting DL's "desperate plea" to THROW OUT their contract "REEK's" of Union Busting !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

How is asking an overpaid group for concessions b/c not enough were gained last time "union busting"?! I see it as sound biz decisions...unlike threatening a strike which is currently driving alot of business away from DL and only making the need for concessions more immediate. She only made this statement to cover her arse since she was accused of being in bed with mgmt.

If EVER there was a time to "stand up to" these GREEDY INCOMPETENT CORPERATE BAS***DS, IT's NOW !!
And that means letting DL know, IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS that DALPA WILL "STRIKE" !!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sometimes it not easy, or pleasant to have a "BACKBONE"

Yes...pride and ignorance are a wonderful combination. Just look at where that got us in Iraq.

 

[Fly]

How is asking an overpaid group for concessions b/c not enough were gained last time "union busting"?! I see it as sound biz decisions...unlike threatening a strike which is currently driving alot of business away from DL and only making the need for concessions more immediate. She only made this statement to cover her arse since she was accused of being in bed with mgmt.
Yes...pride and ignorance are a wonderful combination. Just look at where that got us in Iraq.

Wow.....your class envy is showing. THEY GAVE $1 BILLION last year. With your thinking, everyone should make the same amount of $$.

 

[Ch. 12]

Wow.....your class envy is showing. THEY GAVE $1 BILLION last year. With your thinking, everyone should make the same amount of $$.

Please break down this $1B for me. I'm tired of seeing it and the hard # that sticks out in my head is that even after this "magical" $1B (of which no details are ever provided), the AVERAGE...yes AVERAGE salary comes to $169k. There is no class envy...I am able to look at this through the eyes of common business sense...unlike you. I can see that the industry is in a tailspin. I can see that unlike any other industry, non-inflation-adjusted prices have actually gone down over the past 20 years. I can see that due to the extreme elasticity of airline tickets, there is almost no pricing power to correct this. I can see that wages have gone up substantially over the same period in which I mention that prices have gone down. I can see that there is no shared sacrafice. I'm not sure what you see but this corporate greed BS is ridiculous. LOOK AT WHAT IS HAPPENING TO THE ECONOMICS OF THE INDUSTRY YOU ARE IN. Bury your pride...and ignorance to the big picture. Take a business class or at least try to think logically through the problem. And PLEASE stop quoting $1B until you can back up where the numbers come from. What is most disturbing to me is that you can still average nearly 170k per year (on a much more limited work schedule than all other full time professions) despite this magical $1B. It doesn't add up and is just a fluff number. We all know this.

 

[ualdriver]

Please break down this $1B for me. I'm tired of seeing it and the hard # that sticks out in my head is that even after this "magical" $1B (of which no details are ever provided)

There's nothing magical about it, and you're the only person that seems to be disputing the number, including Delta management! Since the giveback was quite a while back and anything information that is older than 6 months old nowadays is ancient history, I'll break it down for you....roughly as I don't remember the details anymore.

Guys like me have to use rough "back of the envelope" numbers to keep things simple for my mind Using numbers from DAL's 2004 annual report, DAL spent 6.4B on labor expenses. Pilot expenses back then probably were about 40% of total labor costs if they followed the same ratio as they did for UAL and other legacy airlines. Well, 40% of 6.4B is about 2.6B, which one could estimate is about what DAL spent on those greedy, overpaid pilots, right? My buddy at DAL told me he took about a 35% pay cut for the first time around, so that equates to about .896B per year. There's most of your 1B. The rest (100M) probably came from cuts in other areas that I'm not 100% certain of (increase in medical costs? layoffs? outsoucing?). Certainly a rounding error could account for that 100M too!


the AVERAGE...yes AVERAGE salary comes to $169k. There is no class envy...

Actually, there probably is a little envy or you wouldn't have even brought that number up. Further, if there wasn't a little bit of envy, you wouldn't have made the statement below. And I dispute that number because at DAL, you'd have to be a 737/MD88 Captain to pull in that kind of dough. Is the average pilot at DAL a 737/MD88 Captain? Don't know, but that seems a little high. Maybe that number (169K) is the TOTAL benefit package (salary, retirement, medical, vacation, etc.) for an average pilot at DAL? That makes more sense.


I can see that unlike any other industry, non-inflation-adjusted prices have actually gone down over the past 20 years. I can see that due to the extreme elasticity of airline tickets, there is almost no pricing power to correct this. I can see that wages have gone up substantially over the same period in which I mention that prices have gone down. I can see that there is no shared sacrafice.

I agree with the first part. The second part? No shared sacrifice? Well.....If you fall into the pilot-hater category, I'm sure you'll be happy to know that by the time all of this is over, they will have given up, in total, far more than any other employee group on the property. Especially if their pensions go to the great graveyard in the sky.


What is most disturbing to me is that you can still average nearly 170k per year (on a much more limited work schedule than all other full time professions) despite this magical $1B. It doesn't add up and is just a fluff number. We all know this.

I don't know "this," nor do I think it is a fluff number. More limited work schedule than other full time professionals? Really? My neighborhood is full of other "full time" professionals. Rather than discuss a typical pilots' schedule which has been discussed ad nauseum on threads all over usaviation, let's just say that you couldn't be more wrong when comparing average professional to average professional. Maybe your perception of a pilot's "limited work schedule" is just fluff on your end?

 

[luv2fly]

the AVERAGE...yes AVERAGE salary comes to $169k. There is no class envy...I am able to look at this through the eyes of common business sense...unlike you.

Well then, let me make it simple for you. The average pilots salary is not 169k a year. If you believe that number, please explain how you arrived at it, or are you just spewing a number you read somewhere?

 

[Ch. 12]

the AVERAGE...yes AVERAGE salary comes to $169k. There is no class envy...

Actually, there probably is a little envy or you wouldn't have even brought that number up. Further, if there wasn't a little bit of envy, you wouldn't have made the statement below. And I dispute that number because at DAL, you'd have to be a 737/MD88 Captain to pull in that kind of dough. Is the average pilot at DAL a 737/MD88 Captain? Don't know, but that seems a little high.

Sorry...no envy. I am pointing out that when there is a group averaging 169k and the industry is tanking, it does not make good business sense to maintain those wages. Also...I could believe that the avg pilot is a 737/MD88 pilot as 40% of their fleet is CRJ/ATR and the other 60% is 73/MD80 and larger. 14% 767, 14% 757 included in that. Get over yourself and your ego if you think my statements come from envy. They come from looking at things with a financial/economical eye.

I can see that unlike any other industry, non-inflation-adjusted prices have actually gone down over the past 20 years. I can see that due to the extreme elasticity of airline tickets, there is almost no pricing power to correct this. I can see that wages have gone up substantially over the same period in which I mention that prices have gone down. I can see that there is no shared sacrafice.

I agree with the first part. The second part? No shared sacrifice? Well.....If you fall into the pilot-hater category, I'm sure you'll be happy to know that by the time all of this is over, they will have given up, in total, far more than any other employee group on the property. Especially if their pensions go to the great graveyard in the sky.

If you have a much larger portion of the pie, you should expect to give up more when it is recollected. And as you posted on your new thread on this board today (did you think I wouldn't read?), the other employees have already given up the goat with pensions. I cannot feel any more sorry for non-pilots than pilots and vice versa on this issue. This issue is horrible but is a factor of the market...just as the steel industry did away with their pensions when the industry collapsed. This is not fun for any group and I DO empathise with pilots on this one.

What is most disturbing to me is that you can still average nearly 170k per year (on a much more limited work schedule than all other full time professions) despite this magical $1B. It doesn't add up and is just a fluff number. We all know this.

I don't know "this," nor do I think it is a fluff number. More limited work schedule than other full time professionals? Really? My neighborhood is full of other "full time" professionals. Rather than discuss a typical pilots' schedule which has been discussed ad nauseum on threads all over usaviation, let's just say that you couldn't be more wrong when comparing average professional to average professional. Maybe your perception of a pilot's "limited work schedule" is just fluff on your end?

What I am sick of hearing on these boards is how pilots should be compensated more like doctors. First off...that sickens me. Second off...doctors actually WORK LOOOOOOONG hours...more like 100-120 per week. Tell me how you work standard 40+ hour work weeks? Please don't include transit time...we all commute to work be it from a hotel, house, etc. Also...please don't include time away from home as hours worked. You chose the profession AND consultants do the same all the time. I used to live and work on the road and did not expect to count my time outside of real work as work time. I even worked in my hotel rooms (do pilots fly planes in their hotel rooms?) and didn't expect to get paid for it. I called it a "work ethic". If this is discussed ad nauseum on these boards, I still haven't heard anything that proves that the typical big bird pilot works a schedule comprable to other professionals. I do feel for the RJ and turbo guys/gals b/c they do put in more hours...still not the 40+ per week. There are regulations that make sure of that.

 

[DLFlyer31]

I could believe that the avg pilot is a 737/MD88 pilot as 40% of their fleet is CRJ/ATR and the other 60% is 73/MD80 and larger. 14% 767, 14% 757 included in that.

The CRJ/ATR is not flown by Delta pilots, so you can't use it in your calculations.

However, we know that half of all DL pilots are first officers and the other half are captains. Currently, the most junior captain is on the MD88 and was hired in 1996. That pilot probably represents about the average pilot.

Assuming this average pilot flies 75 hours a month (a reasonable estimate), he would bring in somewhere in the ballpark of 135-140K. This is only salary and does not include per diem or any other benefits. So based on pure salary, the estimate of 170k would be a little high.

The paycuts DL is proposing would knock this "average" pilot down to 110K. Of course, I don't think pay is the real hang-up in negotiations between DL and DALPA.

 

[Ch. 12]

The CRJ/ATR is not flown by Delta pilots, so you can't use it in your calculations.

However, we know that half of all DL pilots are first officers and the other half are captains. Currently, the most junior captain is on the MD88 and was hired in 1996. That pilot probably represents about the average pilot.

Assuming this average pilot flies 75 hours a month (a reasonable estimate), he would bring in somewhere in the ballpark of 135-140K. This is only salary and does not include per diem or any other benefits. So based on pure salary, the estimate of 170k would be a little high.

The paycuts DL is proposing would knock this "average" pilot down to 110K. Of course, I don't think pay is the real hang-up in negotiations between DL and DALPA.

Very true with the CRJ/ATR info. Thanks for more information. I do agree that the 170k, based on your info, is somewhat high and is not just salary but also contains the indidentals. One way or another, though, it is paid out. Thanks again, DLFlyer...it is refreshing to get better info around these boards.

So...if I were to look at the numbers...even if it is 135-140k...at 75 hours a month, the pilots essentially make the equivalent of 288k-299k per year (if I were to pro-rate the salaries up to a 160 hour month which is the MINIMUM that most other professionals work.) I just cannot feel sorry for the group. It has been a good ride but take a look at the world around and notice that the equiv of 288-299k is pretty unrealistic. No, UALdriver...no envy...more like abhorance. How can you not get it?

 

[DLFlyer31]

So...if I were to look at the numbers...even if it is 135-140k...at 75 hours a month, the pilots essentially make the equivalent of 288k-299k per year (if I were to pro-rate the salaries up to a 160 hour month which is the MINIMUM that most other professionals work.)

True, but the 75 hours only accounts for the time when the brakes are released to when the brakes are set. However, a pilot's job starts before that.

You ever see pilots sitting in the cockpit before the flight running down checklists? Salary doesn't cover that.

You ever see a pilot doing a walk around the plane? Salary doesn't cover that.

You ever see a pilot doing weight and balance calculations before the plane leaves? Salary doesn't cover that.

I'll agree that time in the hotel or time commuting to the airport shouldn't count. But upon arriving at the airport, pilots have many duties to complete before they ever earn a dime.

Keep in mind, I'm not arguing that DL pilots are underpaid and I have little sympathy for the pilots. However, before you criticize their pay, you should at least understand their work schedule.

 

[Ch. 12]

True, but the 75 hours only accounts for the time when the brakes are released to when the brakes are set. However, a pilot's job starts before that.

You ever see pilots sitting in the cockpit before the flight running down checklists? Salary doesn't cover that.

You ever see a pilot doing a walk around the plane? Salary doesn't cover that.

You ever see a pilot doing weight and balance calculations before the plane leaves? Salary doesn't cover that.

I'll agree that time in the hotel or time commuting to the airport shouldn't count. But upon arriving at the airport, pilots have many duties to complete before they ever earn a dime.

Keep in mind, I'm not arguing that DL pilots are underpaid and I have little sympathy for the pilots. However, before you criticize their pay, you should at least understand their work schedule.

I have seen them do all of these things but not to the tune of 1.13 times the block times (the 1.13 would bring their time up to 160 hours in the month). You're right that it's not fair to state that 75 hours is all the work that is being done and I apologize for that. But they sure aren't spending 85 hours a month in the blocks. If so...I think that is an issue that would have been brought up by ALPA long ago.