Feb / Mar 2013 US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Admin]

[NEW THREAD]

 

[mrbreeze]

Bill Brasky said, "This just took the spot as the STUPIDEST post ever!"

Sorry, Bill, but I have seen him be even more stupid.
breeze

 

[Bill Brasky]

Bill Brasky said, "This just took the spot as the STUPIDEST post ever!"

Sorry, Bill, but I have seen him be even more stupid.
breeze

You got me there!

 

[Metroyet]

God Forbid all this prophetic Wisdom be lost to a new thread...

Get ready to spend a couple more million of your dues in court Scab. You're pathetic little USAPA experiment is the biggest failure since Frank Lorenzo. You know you're doomed, you know how many hundreds of thousands it's cost you, and you know APA is going to crush you idiots. You're contribution to the aviation industry is as pathetic as your laughable little pittsburgh airline. See You in Court Mr. Selleck....You CLT guys love those 1981 Moustaches. HA!

 

[Bill Brasky]

God Forbid all this prophetic Wisdom be lost to a new thread...

Get ready to spend a couple more million of your dues in court Scab. You're pathetic little USAPA experiment is the biggest failure since Frank Lorenzo. You know you're doomed, you know how many hundreds of thousands it's cost you, and you know APA is going to crush you idiots. You're contribution to the aviation industry is as pathetic as your laughable little pittsburgh airline. See You in Court Mr. Selleck....You CLT guys love those 1981 Moustaches. HA!

Don't worry. APA doesn't want the Nic, either. Nicolau's experiment in union busting is over.

 

[fatherabraham]

Metro?,

Let me add another like opinion.
Your post last couple weeks are growing desperate & mundane.
They all say same blah juvenile insult blah juvenile insult blah juvenile insult etc.

Dca319,

When you categorically denied ever flying for AWA I gave you the benefit of doubt on poser status. Now I see that every single post by you still incorporates some lame attempt to validate the Nic. So riddle me this DcaRiddler, have you ever personally been employed as a mainline pilot for any airline that formed Usairways ?

FA

 

[EyeInTheSky]

cleardirect and Metroyet clearly sore losers.

Later,
Eye

 

[cleardirect]

Pi brat
Posted Today, 07:47 PM

cleardirect, on 14 February 2013 - 07:27 PM, said:

Judge Silver was talking about negotiating seniority in the process of a contract. usapa has made it clear that this MOU had nothing to do with seniority.

So WHO is usapa going to negotiate seniority with?The company has said they don't want to negotiate seniority and have said they are neutral. The APA does not want to get in the middle of a law suit. Plus judge Silver told everyone that in order to negotiate anything other than Nicolau usapa has to have an LUP. Any bet if APA wants to make that decision on their own and risk a law suit?

Safe harbor is use the Nicolau not risk a law suit not have to determine an LUP. The ninth said it does not have to be the Nicolau but it does have to be equal to the Nicolau. Unless usapa can come up with a list as good or better it WILL work the fear of the west pilots just like the ninth said.

I don't remember the 9th saying that. Can you show me? Also, you didn't answer my question from earlier. Do you still think APA would inherit liability for USAPA's actions?

Ok had to transfer to reply.

Additionally, USAPA’s final proposal may yet be one that does not work the disadvantages Plaintiffs fear, even if that proposal is not the Nicolau Award.3

3 We do not address the thorny question of the extent to which the Nicolau Award is binding on USAPA. We note, as the district court recognize that USAPA is at least as free to abandon the Nicolau Award as was its predecessor, ALPA. The dissent appears implicitly to assume that the Nicolau Award, the product of the internal rules and processes of ALPA, is binding on USAPA. See Diss op. at 8021-22.

The ninth said that it does not have to be the Nicolau but it also has to be a proposal that does not disadvantage the west as we fear. So in simple terms anything usapa proposes has to be equal or better than the Nicolau.

I have also previously addressed, before you go jumping on the as free as ALPA was. You have to go back and read what the district court said. I don't think you will be to happy about what the district court said about usapa being able to just change your name and arbitration goes away.


This is what judge Silver said about the new union inheriting contracts. That would also apply to liability.

But the West Pilots, as well as US Airways, cite a variety of authority supporting the position that the “decertification of ALPA and the certification of USAPA did not change the binding nature of the Transition Agreement.” (Doc. 164 at 7). The West Pilots and US Airways are correct.

When USAPA became the pilots’ new collective bargaining representative, it succeeded “to the status of the former representative without alteration in the contract terms.” Int’l Bhd. of Teamsters v. Texas Int’l Airlines, Inc., 717 F.2d 157, 163 (5th Cir. 1983). As there does not appear to be any dispute that the Transition Agreement was part of the contract between the pilots and US Airways, the Transition Agreement applies to USAPA. Even the case which USAPA relies upon states there is a “general principle that collective bargaining agreements survive a change in representative.” Ass’n of Flight Attendants, AFL-CIO v. USAir, Inc., 24 F.3d 1432, 1439 (D.C. Cir. 1994). Thus, just as ALPA would have been bound by the Transition Agreement had it remained the pilots’ representative, USAPA is bound by the Transition Agreement. 2

2 USAPA believes the Transition Agreement is not binding and it “cannot in any way limit the authority of USAPA . . . with respect to negotiating a new agreement.” (Doc. 152 at 16). It is unclear why USAPA is so adamant on this point as there is no claim that the Transition Agreement itself is limiting USAPA’s authority during the negotiation of a new collective bargaining agreement. Regardless of the binding nature of the Transition Agreement, USAPA’s duty in negotiating a collective bargaining agreement remains the same: to act in conformity with its duty of fair representation. See 14 Penn Plaza LLC v. Pyett, 556 U.S. 247, 270-72 (2009) (“Labor unions certainly balance the economic interests of some employees against the needs of the larger work force as they negotiate collective bargaining agreements” and that balance must reflect compliance with the unions’ “duty of fair representation.”).

To address another question. Judge Silver was speaking about negotiating a collective bargaining agreement. Since we are no longer in section 6 and the contract is essentially done. I ask again WHO is usapa going to negotiate seniority with and still maintain their duty to fairly represent the west at the same time not disadvantaging the west as we fear. Like the judge Silver said at the same time finding an LUP to justify not using an a fair arbitrated list?

So what proposal does usapa feel comfortable with proposing to the APA, the company and the arbitrators that has an LUP, does not disadvantage EVERY west pilots while advancing EVERY east pilot? DOH does that, the Nicolau does not.

 

[MyJ4JjobSucks]

Metroyet, on 14 February 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:
If the APA is dumb enough not to use the Nic. The WEST IS GOING TO SUE THE APA!!! See, I would have thought you understood by now how unions inherit the complete package from the prior Bargaining Agent. Every Single Judge has made it crystal clear that simply changing the name is meaningless. We all know....all of us that live in reality knows, i should say...that the APA will be 100% liable for anything you stupid scabs do. You know, You'd think that 5 years on commutter pay would be enough of an indication that you guys were completely wrong about how this thing was going to go down NO? There are many layers of lititgation in front of you if need be. I'd forget all about that meaningless MOU timeline if I were you.

The APA won't use the Nic list. They'll submit their own list and USAPA will submit our own list, and perhaps a third list may be submitted by a third party, who knows.

As far as the APA inheriting the complete package from USAPA, that's just absurd. They don't automatically inherit LOA 93, 21 days vacation, USAPA cb&l's. All of that has been renegotiated through the MOU.

One last thing, a lot of discussion comes from what Silver and the 9th have said. Most everything in those decisions were based on a US / AWA SLI, not on a USAPA / APA SLI.

 

[autofixer]

In reality, no-one knows what is going to happen and It is all up for grabs. Mergers suck.

 

[mrbreeze]

Dca319,

When you categorically denied ever flying for AWA I gave you the benefit of doubt on poser status. Now I see that every single post by you still incorporates some lame attempt to validate the Nic. So riddle me this DcaRiddler, have you ever personally been employed as a mainline pilot for any airline that formed Usairways ?

FA

A couple of days ago, I made a comment to dca319 about the differences between the MOU roadshow in Philly and what he was told at the PHX roadshow. Might have gone over his head, but there was no denial about being in PHX.
breeze

 

[Metroyet]

Metroyet, on 14 February 2013 - 10:10 PM, said:
If the APA is dumb enough not to use the Nic. The WEST IS GOING TO SUE THE APA!!! See, I would have thought you understood by now how unions inherit the complete package from the prior Bargaining Agent. Every Single Judge has made it crystal clear that simply changing the name is meaningless. We all know....all of us that live in reality knows, i should say...that the APA will be 100% liable for anything you stupid scabs do. You know, You'd think that 5 years on commutter pay would be enough of an indication that you guys were completely wrong about how this thing was going to go down NO? There are many layers of lititgation in front of you if need be. I'd forget all about that meaningless MOU timeline if I were you.


The APA won't use the Nic list. They'll submit their own list and USAPA will submit our own list, and perhaps a third list may be submitted by a third party, who knows.

As far as the APA inheriting the complete package from USAPA, that's just absurd. They don't automatically inherit LOA 93, 21 days vacation, USAPA cb&l's. All of that has been renegotiated through the MOU.

One last thing, a lot of discussion comes from what Silver and the 9th have said. Most everything in those decisions were based on a US / AWA SLI, not on a USAPA / APA SLI.

Great!! See you in court!! It's going to be hysterical to watch USCABA try and convince a Federal Judge that they can gang rape the America West PIlots because.....why again? what gives them the right? What EXACTLY is that LUP that is so obviously required?

 

[cleardirect]

Don't worry. APA doesn't want the Nic, either. Nicolau's experiment in union busting is over.

And you would know this how? Has the APA leadership made any public statements saying they will not use the Nicolau or that they don't agree with the arbitrated list?

Do you seriously think that the APA is going to agree to place 2500 out of 3500 east pilots in the top 5000 slots? DOH would place 71% of the east pilots in the top 30% of the combined list. That ain't gonna happen.

 

[mrbreeze]

So in simple terms anything usapa proposes has to be equal or better than the Nicolau.

That, sir, is where your boat springs a leak. That is what has your head all screwed up.
breeze

 

[dca319]

A couple of days ago, I made a comment to dca319 about the differences between the MOU roadshow in Philly and what he was told at the PHX roadshow. Might have gone over his head, but there was no denial about being in PHX.
breeze

You can save it guys because the MoU vote is over. Our next event is SLI which is why I bring it up. I'm not going along with the Nic is dead stuff like some here are. No one has yet to put up any definitive evidence that the Nicolau won't be an issue. All everyone here posts is lip service mixed in with wishful thinking. I'm not buying it. I've seen no plan B from anyone.