Here comes the BK threat from the company

[Super FLUF]

Apparently, the company has withdrawn from negotiations with the pilots and will be submitting a "last best offer" within the next week or two. The offer will also be accompanied by the threat of BK if we do not accept.

Welcome to 2003.

The APA will tell them to pack sand, so I guess we will finally get to see if the company is bluffing or not.

 

[Frank Szabo]

Apparently, the company has withdrawn from negotiations with the pilots and will be submitting a "last best offer" within the next week or two. The offer will also be accompanied by the threat of BK if we do not accept.

Welcome to 2003.

The APA will tell them to pack sand, so I guess we will finally get to see if the company is bluffing or not.

... another round of wheel reinvention ... It was long overdue.

I guess if you flyboys/flygirls will be the "cause" of a Chapter 11 filing, that means the rest of us needn't worry about any contracts at all. At least someone got the company off the pot.

It's just another case of "there you are".

 

[Birdman]

Would all the pilots retirement plans go to the PBGC after a BK filing? If so, I seriously doubt the pilots will want anything to do with it.

 

[FWAAA]

If a Ch 11 filing occurs, the AMTs don't want the worthless union negotiating for them in bankruptcy, do you?

The time to replace the impotent worthless union was yesterday, guys. How much longer will you suffer two hours of pay per month for substandard representation?

 

[Frank Szabo]

Would all the pilots retirement plans go to the PBGC after a BK filing? If so, I seriously doubt the pilots will want anything to do with it.

The pensions needn't go to the PBGC if the company is willing to administer them and, even though frozen, continue to pay in to bring the balance up to snuff, as I understand it. Odds are though, AMR would shove the entire mess at the PBGC and say "Here".

A few years ago, the max the PBGC would pay was $44,100 or so per year. Eolesen says that's been raised somewhat but I seriously doubt it was raised enough to protect the pilots. Many other pilots from other airlines with plans turned to the PBGC have met the same "fate", if you will, by having the hell cut out of their pensions as the max isn't what they were getting prior to the termination and turnover.

The PBGC will protect the TWU people due to there wage base but the pilots collect much more from the company's plan and stand to lose a helluva lot, as would the executives. That's why the $46 million $lu$h fund was set up in 2003, to insure the top execs needn't do without - the pilots have no such protection.

If the PBGC does get the AA pensions, only someone like Blackman of LGA with his 55+ years of service would be affected within the TWU ranks. Most others with the 35-40 year retirements might bump the ceiling but not very hard.

 

[eolesen]

The pilots have two pieces to their pension. The A fund is PBGC guaranteed up to the max, which I think is now ~$54,000 for plans terminated in 2011.

Those who retire at 65 are made whole like any other employee. Not certain how it affects pilots who were forced to retire at 60 because of the old law, but anyone else who retired between 64 and 55 is essentially screwed to an increasing degree...

The second piece (the B fund) is more like a mutual fund. When you have a bunch of guys cashing out, the overall investment value for everyone else drops accordingly. One of the proposals from the company was to dismantle the B fund and replace it with a 401K that wouldn't be as subject to swings based on who cashed out that year.

And for the record, try to remember that the much maligned slush fund isn't just there to protect the current execs. It's also there to protect the ones who already retired, i.e. Crandall, Mike Gunn, John Judge, widows of Max Hopper & Bob Baker and other "pioneer" executives who have had no part in the current state of affairs at AMR. Baker died just after it was created, which I do not think is a coincidence.

 

[Frank Szabo]

Uh, pretty certain the pilots have a non-guaranteed fund as well...

And for the record, the much maligned slush fund isn't just there to protect the current execs. It's really there to protect the ones who already retired, i.e. Crandall, Mike Gunn, John Judge, widows of Max Hopper & Bob Baker and other "pioneer" executives who have had no part in the current state of affairs at AMR. Baker died just after it was created, which I do not think is a coincidence.

That's what I was saying, E - the pilots aren't protected as are the execs.

I understand who this thing covers and for those who had no hand in the creation of the present cluster####, it's fine by me. My ire as well as that of others is rightfully aimed at those who put the company in its present situation by their extremes of stupidity. The people of years past you mentioned most certainly deserve the financial assurance considering what they built and passed on - those presently infesting Centrepork are well on their way to destroying everything those you mentioned had worked to acheive, but much like the worthless and spoiled heir who took over and ruined the family business, do not.

 

[Frank Szabo]

If a Ch 11 filing occurs, the AMTs don't want the worthless union negotiating for them in bankruptcy, do you?

The time to replace the impotent worthless union was yesterday, guys. How much longer will you suffer two hours of pay per month for substandard representation?

As worthless as they are and with all the federal court oversight, it should be rather easy to mount a DFR suit if they don't do their job properly.

Unfortunately, I don't believe there would be a choice in the matter unless they were sent packing previously.

 

[TIME FOR CHANGE]

Apparently, the company has withdrawn from negotiations with the pilots and will be submitting a "last best offer" within the next week or two. The offer will also be accompanied by the threat of BK if we do not accept.

Welcome to 2003.

The APA will tell them to pack sand, so I guess we will finally get to see if the company is bluffing or not.

Is that the rumor mill or fact...
Any data to back it up

 

[TWU informer]

That would explain the unusual NMB departure from TWU Negotiations.

 

[damajagua]

Apparently, the company has withdrawn from negotiations with the pilots and will be submitting a "last best offer" within the next week or two. The offer will also be accompanied by the threat of BK if we do not accept.

Welcome to 2003.

The APA will tell them to pack sand, so I guess we will finally get to see if the company is bluffing or not.

Is this rumor or fact. There has been no official announcements about negotiations with the APA
breaking down. On the contrary I recently flew with a check airman that was very optimistic that
they would have a contract sometimes in the fall

 

[Super FLUF]

Is that the rumor mill or fact...

The company suddenly withdrawing from the table and presenting a "last best" offer in the next week or two is fact. You will see an APA comm blast either Thursday or Friday with details.

The company has already been floating the BK rumor as well as the "dire consequences" threat at the negotiating table. That is straight from guys at the table.

The BK threat is what everyone at APA is expecting, and wheels have been set into motion at the union because of that.

Someone else asked about the retirement funds. Our retirement is basically two funds, A fund and B fund. The B fund is the bulk of the retirement and is independent of the company. The A fund is the one you hear about in the news being dropped to the PBGC for pennies on the dollar. Our A fund is worth much, much less than the B fund. Other airlines had it set up reverse from what we have, so the results of BK were much more devastating to their members. So in a nutshell, yes losing the bulk of an A fund would suck, but the B fund is 100% in tack even in BK. Said another way, many here are over estimating the loss of retirement funds to the pilots should AA file.

Personally, I don't see BK happening for a number of reasons. I think this is just standard hard-ball negotiating tactics by the company. They really have nothing to lose and everything to gain from threats. If they get us to capitulate on a number of issues, the savings can reach the hundreds of millions in savings. If they get nothing from us and never file, they really have lost nothing as negotiations resume like they have been going all along. It is smart business in one sense, but a piss poor way to motivate and treat your employees.

 

[Flying low]

From 514's Informer today:
[The National Mediation Board has a limited number of mediators and resources and they are assigning them where the parties are closer to an agreement and need help closing. This already happened with the A.A. Flight Attendants and A.A. Pilots. The Pilots and AA agreed to keep negotiating without the NMB and have made progress. The TWU M&R committee made progress last week with two more articles tentatively agreed to. However, there are still open items on compensation and retirement. The TWU intends to continue negotiating just as the Pilots have and American has agreed to do so. “I am disappointed in the mediator’s decision not to continue to schedule and mediate negotiations but am glad that we can continue to meet with the company to make progress toward gaining a fair contract for our members.”

TWU 514 Chairman of Maintenance said, “I’m glad the mediator is out of the way so we can meet on our schedule more often than the mediator’s schedule. Hopefully this will speed up the process.”

TWU 514 Chairman of Plant Maintenance, said, “This is not an attempt to stop the TWU from getting a contract with AA I feel like we now have an opportunity to complete the process in future negotiations without mediation].

 

[FrequentFlierCA]

While this is interesting, it's pure conjecture and speculation until we see either AA or the APA come out with something. I wouldn't get too worked up unless there's actually some merit to this.

 

[eolesen]

If it's this important, why wait until Thursday or Friday?...

I'll believe it when I see it, but I think the last statement is probably closest to the truth --- the NMB has limited resources, and lots of parties in negotiations right now, not just at AA.

If the divine message from Pharaoh Bama's NMB is nobody will be released into a cooling off until after His future is decided, they might as well reassign the mediators to where they might be more productive.