IAM FILES AT DELTA FOR UNION REPRESENTATION

Tell me, how you can have employees, give them all that and compete.

You are right, "Delta Technician". Delta should do with employees what Comair did in the early 1990s:

--offer $5.00 per hour (prevailing minimum wage)
--promise lavish benefits (health insurance, passes, etc) at the interview to lure people to the job only to say "We lied! You get nothing!" after they accept employment
--make everyone work split shifts
--give everyone one day off per week (if two days off given, make them split days off)

Granted Comair was not owned by Delta at the time, but they did have a strong marketing partnership with Delta. Anyone who wants a work situation like that should definitely vote "No" in a union vote.
 
You are right, "Delta Technician". Delta should do with employees what Comair did in the early 1990s:

--offer $5.00 per hour (prevailing minimum wage)
--promise lavish benefits (health insurance, passes, etc) at the interview to lure people to the job only to say "We lied! You get nothing!" after they accept employment
--make everyone work split shifts
--give everyone one day off per week (if two days off given, make them split days off)

Granted Comair was not owned by Delta at the time, but they did have a strong marketing partnership with Delta. Anyone who wants a work situation like that should definitely vote "No" in a union vote.

I am so sorry for you all! Before voting PLEASE ask for and read the IAM C&B. No autonomy, white ballot voting, other locals vote for your General Chairs, and never forget that IAM "clout". Ask the former TWA f/as how well that worked for them. They gave away our SCOPE and Allegheny Mohawk provisions and left us high and dry after the acquisition. No vote of the membership on that issue and even if we had been able to vote there is a provision that allows the grand poopaw to over-ride...It is all about the dues, no more, no less.
 
You have said you have had your own business (or dabbled in it).

Funny how you can remember something I posted once months ago, but can't figure out that I'm in ACS, even though I mention it all the time. We had a great benefits package, and competed just fine. That package also allowed us to retain high quality employees it what was then a competitive labor market. DL should take a lesson.


Tell me, how you can have employees, give them all that and compete. Ok, now pretend it's just delivering bags from one place to another for an airline. Explain how you can possibly make money in this economic environment. Enquiring minds want to know.

The main factors that control profitability are out of labor's hands. If I ran the place I'd do things like roll all the hubs, increase A/C utilization (as much as possible in the current environment), etc. I'd also figure out exactly what kind of airline we want to be, and stick with it. No more schizophrenia.

It's also not unreasonable to ask labor to work hard for what they get in return. The problem is that the masses are always a convenient target instead of tackling tougher issues. It's an easy shot when people adopt the "I'm just lucky to have a job" mindset you love to promote.

Tell me; what would you propose we all make in both wages & benefits (both Tech Ops & ACS)?


I am so sorry for you all! Before voting PLEASE ask for and read the IAM C&B.

Nancy, our entire CBA(s) are available online, and we have been actively encouraging DL folks to read them.


white ballot voting,

White ballots suck. I agree 100% on that. I've spent a lot of time trying to change that.


Ask the former TWA f/as how well that worked for them. They gave away our SCOPE and Allegheny Mohawk provisions and left us high and dry after the acquisition.

Well, DL has no scope, so that's a moot issue here. Our LLP provisions were gutted in CH11, but are still better than the alternative.


No vote of the membership on that issue and even if we had been able to vote there is a provision that allows the grand poopaw to over-ride...It is all about the dues, no more, no less.

At least we were able to vote; I'm sorry you couldn't. No over ride either...
 
Ask the IAM how they represented the TWA people. Be afraid, be VERY afraid. They will promise you the moon and it is only lip service. The DL f/a's should vote for AFA-CWA.
 
Ask the IAM how they represented the TWA people. Be afraid, be VERY afraid. They will promise you the moon and it is only lip service. The DL f/a's should vote for AFA-CWA.


It's still amazes me how the TWA employees will not place any blame on themselves for staying with a company that was dying for years. The IAM didn't sell anyone down the river, they did what was necessary to go forward with the acquisition. AA made it very clear the acquisition would not have happened if SCOPE and Allegheny Mohawk provisions, were not given up. So it was one of two things that could have happened. TWA could of allowed the acquisition to go forward or they could of filed for Chapter 7. AA was the only airline willing to take TWA with all it's debt and employees. What I will say is, is the IAM the best union? No. Would I like to have AFA as my union? YES. Would I trade being union for non-union? HELL NO.
 
The IAM didn't sell anyone down the river, they did what was necessary to go forward with the acquisition.
there is no sugar coating that one!

(they royally screwed that one up)

...while our industry is cyclical and there are gains and losses, pay cuts and restorations...our industry in particular,

seniority is one of the cornerstones of unionism.

to forfeit a Flight Attendant's seniority rights is unconscionable.

and no they did not do the right thing but it wasn't just the IAM either..

to my understanding they basically persuaded the union to forfeit their rights making the transition smoother, and of course we all know what the other union did to those Flight Attendants absent anything in writing..

stapled.

they had something in writing, the union believed they would be taken care of...and they were screwed over.

the learning lesson..

do not automatically forfeit (without careful consideration) what is in writing and believe every line that someone is going to always do the right thing...

just because they say they will!
 
Well I'm sorry but I disagree with you. Everyone has an opinion on the matter but the fact is, if they didn't give up SCOPE. There would of been NO acquisition. Again in my opinion, rightfully so. I would not be willing to be placed out on the street because of a acquisition. The APFA did the right thing by protecting it's members at the time of the acquisition. If 9/11 didn't happen, and the fuel crisis, and AA didn't need to furlough. The TWA people would of been enjoying the benefit of a well paying company. Something they had not seen in over a decade. It's a sad situation all the way around, but IMO you can't expect a bunch of employees to be furloughed, so that employees from the failed company can have there jobs with pay and seniority at a new company.

Let's be completely real, had AA not been infusing hundred's, upon HUNDRED'S of million's of dollars into TWA. It never would have made it to 9/11/2001. This by far was the biggest blunder American Airline's made in it's entire history. So no matter what, the IAM had it's hands strapped. The easiest thing to do is place blame with everyone but one's self. I have quite a few friends from TWA, but not one ever said, I knew the writing was on the wall and should of left. No, they blame the IAM, AA, APFA, and anyone else they can find to blame.
 
Well I'm sorry but I disagree with you. Everyone has an opinion on the matter but the fact is, if they didn't give up SCOPE. There would of been NO acquisition. Again in my opinion, rightfully so. I would not be willing to be placed out on the street because of a acquisition. The APFA did the right thing by protecting it's members at the time of the acquisition. If 9/11 didn't happen, and the fuel crisis, and AA didn't need to furlough. The TWA people would of been enjoying the benefit of a well paying company. Something they had not seen in over a decade. It's a sad situation all the way around, but IMO you can't expect a bunch of employees to be furloughed, so that employees from the failed company can have there jobs with pay and seniority at a new company.

Let's be completely real, had AA not been infusing hundred's, upon HUNDRED'S of million's of dollars into TWA. It never would have made it to 9/11/2001. This by far was the biggest blunder American Airline's made in it's entire history. So no matter what, the IAM had it's hands strapped. The easiest thing to do is place blame with everyone but one's self. I have quite a few friends from TWA, but not one ever said, I knew the writing was on the wall and should of left. No, they blame the IAM, AA, APFA, and anyone else they can find to blame.
Thanks you... Thank you.... Everyone seems to have forgotten how it all happened and what the terms of the agreement were. All they focus on they how they all got screwd and how the poor F/A's got stappled to the
bottom.
 
All they focus on they how they all got screwd and how the poor F/A's got stappled to the
bottom.
actually the focus is the real problems screwing around with seniority causes.. not only for both groups but the airline as well.

Thankfully at least there is an option with the McCaskill-Bonds going forward preventing anyone else from being totally "screwd" in the future by a staple job!
 
There would of been NO acquisition.
not really, there were other airlines bidding for TWA...

Continental was one...

Northwest was another...

CAL also wanted to purchase the assets of TWA as well but was outbid, I believe they had bid 400 million to AA 500 million or something like that!

our beloved NWA also objected to the AA deal and was offering to purchase the equity for cash.

(if NWA had been successful, every TWA Flight Attendant would have received full seniority at NW and ironically would be in qualification training or scheduled to in the near future becoming Delta Flight Attendants...right now)

if it did not work out with AA they would have not been out on the street.

its done now, but I think the right thing to do would at least offer those people their jobs back (regardless of an expired recall) as the decent thing to do prior to any hiring in the future.

(most of them probably just wanted to return to the careers they worked so long at and loved)

It's a sad situation all the way around
it was a learning lesson for the entire industry.

but IMO you can't expect a bunch of employees to be furloughed, so that employees from the failed company can have there jobs with pay and seniority at a new company
well then they shouldnt merge or acquire another company and their employees!
 
You have said you have had your own business (or dabbled in it). Tell me, how you can have employees, give them all that and compete. Ok, now pretend it's just delivering bags from one place to another for an airline. Explain how you can possibly make money in this economic environment. Enquiring minds want to know.


We had that stuff, and a whole lot more before the BK's.
All of us gave up a whole lot, and asking (and KEEPING) what we got is the most important thing. Hell, I'd love to get back all of what I've lost, but that isn't realistic right now. But definitely keeping what you have is the goal.

We gave up a ton of stuff during the BK's (how much have you lost?) so we can prosper in the future. It's not our duty or obligation to give up even more. So a race to the bottom is not needed right now.

I wish all of you NW/DL employees good luck on your upcoming elections. A lot of us are paying close attention to see how this plays out.
 
not really, there were other airlines bidding for TWA...

Continental was one...

Northwest was another...

CAL also wanted to purchase the assets of TWA as well but was outbid, I believe they had bid 400 million to AA 500 million or something like that!

our beloved NWA also objected to the AA deal and was offering to purchase the equity for cash.

(if NWA had been successful, every TWA Flight Attendant would have received full seniority at NW and ironically would be in qualification training or scheduled to in the near future becoming Delta Flight Attendants...right now)

if it did not work out with AA they would have not been out on the street.

its done now, but I think the right thing to do would at least offer those people their jobs back (regardless of an expired recall) as the decent thing to do prior to any hiring in the future.

(most of them probably just wanted to return to the careers they worked so long at and loved)


it was a learning lesson for the entire industry.


well then they shouldnt merge or acquire another company and their employees!


Sorry but AA was the only airline willing to take over the entire TWA operation. Delta wanted the 757's back then and now they have them today for a much cheaper price. Not one single airline wanted to "Merge" with TWA, EXCEPT AWA, and AA offered the better deal to purchase the company and not merge with it. So no matter what you say, no one wanted TWA and it's debt and could afford to handle it's debt aside from AA at the time. The key word in all of this is ASSETS, AA was willing to take the employee's and not one other bidding airline was willing to do so. TWA had/has alot of dormant routes from the NYC area, that was the reason for the bidding war, as you can see the direction airlines were going in.

TWA employee's were not screwed, they were given as fair a shake as possible under the conditions. I think it's sad you would of been o.k. with placing a few thousand more of your own co-workers on the street during NWA's furlough, had NWA done what AA did. Then again if it was happening to you, I bet you would be singing a different tune. As for this McCaskill-Bonds deal, there are plenty of way's around law's. TWA employee's did not deserve there seniority for being employeed at a new company AA. So if that was in place at the time, the fair way was to staple them to the bottom of the AA seniority list. Just like they should of been stapled to any other airlines to protect it's own employees first.

The IAM did what they could do to protect the members, TWA employee's were given as fair a deal as possible given the fact no one besides AA wanted them. I would expect the IAM to have protected myself and co-worker's in the same manner, and stapled the TWA people at the bottom. So you are right Diginity, no sugar coating and no lieing from my part. Tired of hearing how unfair it was for them and how everyone but themselves screwed them. They screwed themselves and thought other's should be screwed to protect them, yeah right.
 
Sorry but AA was the only airline willing to take over the entire TWA operation.
well that is sort of kind of true..

Continental was not going to take TWA as whole entity and how AA assumed all the debt, what they had intended to do
was basically offer the 400 million for the assets and then TWA would have been reorganized and kept as..

a stand alone airline..(that would have preserved the name and kept a lot of employees on payroll) to me, it appears they really had no intention merging the entire operation into the airline but certainly their plan was not to gut it like AA ended up doing.

there was something about a deadline not being met..and AA ended up the winning bid.

If I am remembering correctly there was also a regional airline that was also willing to pay cash for TWA I think around that same time.. along with NWA's cash bid.

the bottom line was it wasn't that AA was the only airline willing to take TWA as a whole, they were just the successful bidder meeting the deadline, I believe there was an extension that was asked by the regional..and the judge did not allow it.

Delta wanted the 757's back then and now they have them today for a much cheaper price. Not one single airline wanted to "Merge" with TWA, EXCEPT AWA, and AA offered the better deal to purchase the company and not merge with it. So no matter what you say, no one wanted TWA and it's debt and could afford to handle it's debt aside from AA at the time.
the way it played out ..well the other bids should have been considered..

The key word in all of this is ASSETS, AA was willing to take the employee's and not one other bidding airline was willing to do so. TWA had/has alot of dormant routes from the NYC area, that was the reason for the bidding war, as you can see the direction airlines were going in.
If Continental was going to keep TWA as a stand alone, of course the employees would still have jobs, so it was not just AA that was willing to take on the employees, to my understanding under Continental's plan, someone would have to man the ship during the process..correct?

TWA employee's were not screwed, they were given as fair a shake as possible under the conditions.
there was nothing fair in how it played out, but then of course that is JMO.

I think it's sad you would of been o.k. with placing a few thousand more of your own co-workers on the street during NWA's furlough, had NWA done what AA did. Then again if it was happening to you, I bet you would be singing a different tune. As for this McCaskill-Bonds deal, there are plenty of way's around law's. TWA employee's did not deserve there seniority for being employeed at a new company AA. So if that was in place at the time, the fair way was to staple them to the bottom of the AA seniority list. Just like they should of been stapled to any other airlines to protect it's own employees first.
my idea is to respect seniority, that does not mean I am "o.k." with someone getting furloughed, but I am definitely not OK with a Flight Attendant losing all seniority because someone doesnt think they deserve it..
or the forfeiture of Seniority Protections and LPP's like what happened at TWA and their union.

The IAM did what they could do to protect the members, TWA employee's were given as fair a deal as possible given the fact no one besides AA wanted them. I would expect the IAM to have protected myself and co-worker's in the same manner, and stapled the TWA people at the bottom.
I do not think they were treated fairly..

So you are right Diginity, no sugar coating and no lieing from my part. Tired of hearing how unfair it was for them and how everyone but themselves screwed them. They screwed themselves and thought other's should be screwed to protect them, yeah right.
you are interpreting the facts of how it happened completely differently mixed in with your personal opinion.. that seniority is irrelevant in these situations, that is absolutely your right, I can respect an opinion as long as it is taken from all perspectives and a sense of fairness is made available for all.

I interpret the way it was handled as screwing up on both unions part, maybe not intentional for one or another.. but a screw up non-the-less.

it was a learning lesson.