IAM or TWU

Duke787

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Quick question, is the membership going to get a chance to vote on the joint representation of the IAM and TWU, or is that a done deal?
 
Done deal according to 514s pres topic was brought up at last meeting. He said Little signed a binding agreement. So it looks like we're screwed
 
You get to vote on it and its true that Jim Little, as President of the TWU, signed a binding agreement with the IAM, but the membership didn't. We have the final say on whether we accept it and I say "NO".

To me this "alliance" deal is totally unacceptable and the two Unions need to scrap this horrible plan that was dreamed up by appointees who were more concerned with internal union politics and Union Dues than coming up with a plan that would benefit the members and that the the members could accept. First off splitting us up between two different Unions is about the worst plan anyone could think of, if both unions are too meek to fight to get us then then split up the membership by class and craft, not location. One Contract group goes to the TWU, the other goes to the IAM. that I could support, but there is no way I can support a deal where if a member transfers from JFK to BOS he ends up in a different union paying different dues and having a completely different Constitution. I can not support the two Unions deciding who will negotiate for us and the content of the contracts, what we will end up with is one blaming the other, in the end we will be as bad off as we were with Videtich running the show.

Your elected representatives had ZERO input into this deal and we are a big enough majority to let both parties know that if they put us in a position where we have to accept this deal or neither one of them want us they may not like the outcome. Like I said, it may be binding in that the TWU cant unilaterally change the deal but if both agree that's its not acceptable to us they can make any changes they want, in the end we get to vote.

If both parties realize its a bad deal then the deal can be scrapped. I would suggest that we all start letting our respective unions know that what they dreamed up for us is unacceptable. Right now the plan is to try and force us to accept the deal by saying the vote will be either for the alliance, or no union. Lets not be bullied into accepting this, and make it clear that if that's the way they want to play it they may not like the result, there are still at least two suitors out there so my bet is if we make it clear that dividing us up and making us easy pickings for even more abuse from our employers simply will not be acceptable they will change the plan. One Union, I'll even say let them decide who they want to put on the ballot, but the "Alliance " with its incoherent structure where each area of the country is all split up between two different Unions is a NOGO.
 
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Yes you guys are screwed. Membership has no say so about the association coming into the combined carrier. Now according to 700 you guys will have 3 choices when you vote for on having the association or not, 1-Yes to accept the association, 2-No, which means NO-Union (this is per 700), and 3- other, which usually means a write-in and speak-in option IF the NMB were running the election. But, as most on here know I have contacted the NMB and they gave me a response in writing that they do not have the jurisdiction to run the election between 2 unions that want to combine, merge or become an association, and that that would be between the 2 unions not the NMB. Yes the NMB will be contacted about the combination of the association as they have to certify them (if they win) but the NMB will have nothing to do with conducting or running the vote for the association. You guys better hope there really is an option for write-in and/or speak-in, it will be the only option to get AMFA in unless the new card drive does it first. Otherwise you guys may have to go unrepresented for a little while. With the TWU in charge it would be worth it, it time to fire them...
 
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So the NMB is saying that they would have no say in an election that 700 is claiming could result in decertification? Obviously then if we vote against the Alliance then we would stay where we are because according to the NMB there was no vote, so the No-Union option is more of a bullying tactic than anything, in reality we would simply be voting against the Alliance. Both organizations need to be honest with the membership for a change. Lets face it, 700 and others can say what they want, neither Union is going to simply walk away from Millions in dues just because we didn't accept their divisive plan that would leave us split between two unions in a Bullshit "alliance". "Alliance", even sounds weak. They need to come up with a plan that gives the membership control, this alliance deal strips the membership bare as far as control and gives it all to the Internationals of two different Unions. They need to come up with something where each class and craft is in one Union and take some input from people who the membership actually elected.
 
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Bob, in case you do not know 700 and I were in a long long dispute back and forth about this. My thinking was exactly as yours about the deception, and scare tactics. I have posted numerous times the exact email I received back from Don West @ the NMB. Here's a blip from the US forums where 700 was pushing this issue. And other responses included. Bob I have also provided the emails and contact numbers to reach Don West personally and he (700) refuses to inquire about it on his own and will continue to listen to the IAM leadership on what will happen. Sorry to everyone else for the revisit of this subject, but it is extremely important at this time and I am still shocked that no-else has look into this on there own for verification. Bob the IAM is pushing the fact that the NMB is going to run the election, which if that were true the membership would have more options. Bob could you possibly (as a third party not tied to me or 700) throw an e-mail out to Don West at NMB as this is going to affect your members as well? Now below are some postings with the claims:-



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'700UW', on 05 Sept 2013 - 12:09 PM, said:


Ah, you make this too easy, read this:




And here proof the NMB handles alliance votes between two unions, you made this way too easy, read the determination from the NMB.

http://www.nmb.gov/r...2006/33n031.pdf

This determination addresses the representation consequences of the application filed by the Airline Customer Service Employee Association, IBT-CWA (Association) for the craft or class of Passenger Service Employees, employees of US Airways.

The Board finds that the Association is the certified representative of the entire craft or class of Passenger Service Employees in the single transportation system (R-7085). The Board extinguishes the certifications held by CWA for this craft or class on East (R-6435) and by the IBT on West (R-7011).


'ThirdSeatHero', on 05 Sept 2013 - 2:13 PM, said:


The IAM/TWU alliance is a maneuver designed to deny the combined membership a say in their representation.

This example cited by 700 is the simplest explanation ....



What the NMB told swamt is true, they DO NOT have jurisdiction over union alliances or mergers.

What is occurring here is that neither the IAM nor the TWU will file for representation on their own with the NMB. They will file, AS ONE, with the NMB as the IAM/TWU alliance. The memberships at AA and US never having a say on alliance before the vote.

So 700s example would play out as the IAM/TWU alliance is certified, and the individual certifications of the TWU at AA and the IAM at US are extinguished.

Minus any intervenors once an STS investigation is concluded the vote is either the alliance or non-union. The IAM/TWU has denied the membership a say in this alliance, and are counting on them not to vote "no union"

As swamt has said, the memberships at both AA & US need to educate themselves. Specifically with the ability to have another group, chosen by the membership, file as an intervenor.

Again from one of my previous posts ...

Until there is a completed merger, there can't be an investigation into a Single Transportation System or STS.

Until there is a completed NMB STS investigation there cannot be an election.

If/When the NMB STS investigation is complete, AND the merged carriers are considered a STS for the class and craft in question, then there is a window for intervenors to file a showing of interest and be added to the ballot.


If you are satisfied with the IAM/TWU alliance, then simply wait and vote accordingly.

If you are NOT satisfied, then take action and have your choice for representation file as an intervenor when the time comes.

The choice is still yours to make.

First and foremost; Thank you Thirdseathero, for seeing thru all this BS 700 is twisting and turning. Now for you 700, NOTHING you have posted has proven that the NMB ran the elections of any alliance, combination, or merger of 2 unions. The only thing you posted was that they did an investigation to an application for the cert to be transferred, and as long as there was no protest, or other unions that wanted to get in then they blessed it with a new certification. They (the NMB) still did not run, control, or perform the election of the alliance, combination, or merger of 2 unions coming together to represent both airline employees PERIOD. You always post for others to quit their lying out here. You 700 need to quit posting the lies of the NMB conducting the elections of 2 unions coming together. Again I will repeat, just like a father to his kids, because I have to, the NMB WILL NOT conduct, run, control, or perform an election for the mechanics and related at AA and US who are represented by the TWU and IAM respectively, as they have put in writing to me by e-mail the following, and I QUOTE:- " The NMB has no jurisdiction over the alliance or merger of unions and does not conduct such elections", they will investigate the cert transfers after they receive the application, but this is after the unions conducted the election and sent the results with NO OTHER unions claiming an interest to represent and then they will transfer the certs. NOTHING you have posted shows or proves that the NMB held, controlled, ran, or conducted any elections in the past for 2 unions combining, merging, creating an alliance or what ever you guys want to call it today. Give it up 700, your deceit postings have been brought to light. Your lies are now brought to light. Nothing from the NMB web sites you provide even indicate they held the elections, they only say they investigated and transferred the cert after there were no other interest of other unions to represent. Give it up 700. Your credibility is now a big fat "0". I know your gonna say you received all this info from your "mentor" 20 year old best friend at the IAM. STOP and gather the info for yourself. I recommended for you to do this and you chose not to, now you look like a fool. I dare you to call or write the NMB at 202-692-5050 or [email protected] and ask if they would run the election for the alliance of the TWU and IAM combination. Your answer, I guarantee will be NO. I also recommend any AA and US mechanic to do the same (don't believe me) get the information yourselves and you too will be told " The NMB has no jurisdiction over the alliance or merger of unions and does not conduct such elections.
Have a wonderful day and stop with your BS deceitful postings to try and force the memberships to vote for the bottom of the barrel 2 unions or they will be non-union... You kill me with your intentions as they are not true and for the betterment of the union members, it is ONLY for the betterment of the TWU/IAM dues to continue coming in.
 
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So in other words even if the members voted "No Union", as far as the NMB is concerned this was simply an internal referendum and has no weight as far as whether or not the members are represented or not, since there was no official representation election as far as they were concerned, just an internal referendum that did not pass. As far as the NMB is concerned nothing has changed, even if voted down the two unions could go ahead and file for the Association, or, however very unlikely, walk away and say they no longer want to represent those workers. But in any event a "NO Union" vote would not in itself decertify either Union in the eyes of the NMB.
 
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Bob Owens said:
First off splitting us up between two different Unions is about the worst plan anyone could think of, if both unions are too meek to fight to get us then then split up the membership by class and craft, not location. One Contract group goes to the TWU, the other goes to the IAM. that I could support...
^This^
 
This will not be a choice. It is an ultimatum. Who's kidding who? I vote no union and we should all do the same then let's see what the alliance will do when we voted no on either union.
 
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Bob Owens said:
One thing you can be sure of no matter what we are told, they are not going to walk away from Millions in dues.
Bob that's pretty much the bottom line there
 
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Bob Owens said:
So the NMB is saying that they would have no say in an election that 700 is claiming could result in decertification?
Read pages 4 and 5.
http://www.nmb.gov/representation/deter2006/33n027.pdf
 
The unions held the votes, and the NMB certified the new association based on the internal union vote and joint application.   
 
 
A. Joint Agreement for the Formation of the Association
On September 9, 2005, the IBT and CWA entered into a Joint Agreement for the Formation of the Association (Agreement). On or about September 22, 2005, CWA mailed out ballots and other information regarding the proposed Agreement to all East Passenger Service Employees. The ballot contained the following question: "Do you agree that CWA, the US Airways Passenger Service union, should form an association with the Teamsters, the America West Passenger Service union, to jointly represent the Passenger Service employees when the two airlines merge?" The ballot contained spaces in which to mark yes or no. On October 13, 2005, the ballots were counted. The count determined that a substantial majority of employees, who voted, voted in favor of the formation of the Association.
On September 15, 2005, the IBT sent letters to all West Passenger Service Employees announcing the formation of the Association, explaining its purpose and providing information on an internal union referendum to determine whether West’s Passenger Service Employees would consent to a transfer of IBT’s certification to the Association. On September 23, 2005, ballots were mailed out to West Passenger Service Employees along with the Agreement forming the Association and its Constitution. The ballot asked the following question: "Do you consent to a transfer of the International Brotherhood of Teamsters’ certification as the designated representative of America West Airlines, Inc.’s Passenger Service Employees to the Airline Customer Service Employee Association – IBT and CWA?" On October 14, 2005, the ballots were counted by an independent election supervisor hired by the IBT. The count determined that a substantial majority of those voting consented to the transfer of the IBT’s certification to the Association.
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In their request to transfer their certifications to the Association, the IBT and CWA argue that the RLA requires only that the Board investigate a request to transfer a certification based on a union merger or affiliation rather than mandating any procedures for such an investigation. Continental Airlines, Inc., v. Nat’l Mediation Brd., 793 F. Supp. 330 (D.D.C. 1991), aff’d mem., 957 F.2d 911 (D.C. Cir. 1992), cert. denied, 493
U.S. 974 (1992).
In most instances, the Board grants a transfer request based upon assertions contained in the transfer request letters. Consolidated Rail Corp., 28 NMB 30 (2000); Big Sky Transp. Co., 25 NMB 376 (1998); Desert Sun Airlines, 24 NMB 137 (1997); Northwest Airlines, 18 NMB 446 (1991); Transtar Airlines, 14 NMB 377 (1987).
There is no evidence of fraud or gross abuse in the affiliation or election process conducted by the IBT and CWA. Each organization conducted a secret ballot of its members. In each election a substantial majority of those who voted, voted in support of the formation of the Association and the request to transfer individual certifications to the Association. Based on its investigation, the Board finds that the IBT and CWA have affiliated for the purpose of representing Passenger Service Employees at the combined carrier. The Board’s records are revised to reflect the transfer of the certification issued to CWA in NMB Case No. R-6435 to the Association and the certification issued to IBT in NMB Case No. R-7011 is also transferred to the Association.
III.
 
Bob Owens said:
So in other words even if the members voted "No Union", as far as the NMB is concerned this was simply an internal referendum and has no weight as far as whether or not the members are represented or not, since there was no official representation election as far as they were concerned, just an internal referendum that did not pass. As far as the NMB is concerned nothing has changed, even if voted down the two unions could go ahead and file for the Association, or, however very unlikely, walk away and say they no longer want to represent those workers. But in any event a "NO Union" vote would not in itself decertify either Union in the eyes of the NMB.
Correct Bob.  I still say the No-Union or Non-Union option that 700 is representing from the IAM is a complete scare tactic to get everyone scared into voting for the alliance, hence TWU/IAM keep the dues,  AND would be much, much harder to replace the union or alliance. 
Bob, I didn't think you guys over here were aware of these talks between 700 and I in the US forums under "IAM WINS"  thread.  I encourage all of you to visit and read thru.  Then I very strongly encourage each and everyone of you to call and write the NMB about this alliance issue.  The two unions are working together to scare the membership into a forced vote for the alliance.  If everyone believes 700 and the IAM and TWU then of course the majority will vote for the alliance out of fear they would end up non-union and not represented any more, when in reality they would just remain the same.  But I still think there may be options out there...