IAM Organizing JetBlue Ramp

[ThirdSeatHero]

DL has long had a history of paying its people more because they gain increased efficiency.

It's really quite amazing that you find it dubious for DL to use the very same strategy that WN uses; the only difference is that DL is not unionized for most employee groups while WN is.

dispense with the nonsense that DL acts to keep unions out even though DL uses a strategy that existed long before WN was ever around.

 
DL hasn't always been on top pay wise, and I'll spare you the suspense, they won't always be in the future either. No airline has, and No airline will.
 
The airline industry is cyclical, and speaking from MX, for years prior to the Legacy mergers a host of other airlines held the top spot for pay and DL coasted along at 3 or 4 and always would throw out increases when the MX started union grumbling.  DL would go up a few spots, and then the other carriers would get new contracts and DLs right back to 3 or 4.
 
DL increased the majority of its non union labor groups to at or near top scale recently to obviously grease the skids in merger related representational elections.
 
The true test will come soon, when AA and/or UA MX exceed DL pay in their new agreements.
 
Will DL raise their MX back on top, or drift down into the 2-3 position again

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

I would also like to mention that for those trying to turn this into merely a "pay" issue, you should read some of the statements from those actually involved.  Its about more than just pay.
 
Good Luck B6'ers

 

[WorldTraveler]

DL hasn't always been on top pay wise, and I'll spare you the suspense, they won't always be in the future either. No airline has, and No airline will.
 
The airline industry is cyclical, and speaking from MX, for years prior to the Legacy mergers a host of other airlines held the top spot for pay and DL coasted along at 3 or 4 and always would throw out increases when the MX started union grumbling.  DL would go up a few spots, and then the other carriers would get new contracts and DLs right back to 3 or 4.
 
DL increased the majority of its non union labor groups to at or near top scale recently to obviously grease the skids in merger related representational elections.
 
The true test will come soon, when AA and/or UA MX exceed DL pay in their new agreements.
 
Will DL raise their MX back on top, or drift down into the 2-3 position again

 
I didn't say DL is on top.. .I said it has been above average except for during a period when a few DL execs saw average as acceptable.

and as much as some people want to cling to those CBAs as if it shines the light for the next few years, DL by NOT having CBAs can easily start adding pay when it believes it is necessary to do so.

you and others can't argue that DL raises pay to keep unions out but then also doesn't have the power to raise pay when it believes it needs to do so for other reasons.

 

I would also like to mention that for those trying to turn this into merely a "pay" issue, you should read some of the statements from those actually involved.  Its about more than just pay.
 
Good Luck B6'ers

There is no doubt that is true.... but working conditions at any US airline are rarely so bad that someone would trade pay for a better QOL.

At its root, B6 is asking for unions because it hasn't paid its people enough.

and let's also remember that B6' revenue production has slipped for quite some time relative to the industry although it is picking up.

If B6 hasn't managed to maintain its ability to keep getting good revenue, then it is certain that pay won't keep up - union or not.

in fact, the very reason why DL employees have done as well as they have in recent years is because of the company's financial success and because they can afford higher pay raises - and also haven't locked their unions into long-term contracts that mgmt. knew would be passed by other airlines or by telling labor that they can't and won't participate in the improved health of the company via profit sharing.

 

[Kev3188]

I would also like to mention that for those trying to turn this into merely a "pay" issue, you should read some of the statements from those actually involved.  Its about more than just pay.
 
Good Luck B6'ers

+1

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

 
I didn't say DL is on top.. .I said it has been above average except for during a period when a few DL execs saw average as acceptable.

and as much as some people want to cling to those CBAs as if it shines the light for the next few years, DL by NOT having CBAs can easily start adding pay when it believes it is necessary to do so.

you and others can't argue that DL raises pay to keep unions out but then also doesn't have the power to raise pay when it believes it needs to do so for other reasons.
 

 
I never said DL wasn't free to grant raises as they see fit - I've stated that DL has given raises at the onset or during organizing or most recently the merger with NWA - the statements are not exclusive.
 

 
There is no doubt that is true.... but working conditions at any US airline are rarely so bad that someone would trade pay for a better QOL.

At its root, B6 is asking for unions because it hasn't paid its people enough.

and let's also remember that B6' revenue production has slipped for quite some time relative to the industry although it is picking up.

If B6 hasn't managed to maintain its ability to keep getting good revenue, then it is certain that pay won't keep up - union or not.

in fact, the very reason why DL employees have done as well as they have in recent years is because of the company's financial success and because they can afford higher pay raises - and also haven't locked their unions into long-term contracts that mgmt. knew would be passed by other airlines or by telling labor that they can't and won't participate in the improved health of the company via profit sharing.

 
As far as B6 goes that may be your opinion but from what Ive read OUTSIDE this forum, and from those Ive SPOKEN to, while wages are indeed a concern it isn't a premier issue. There is alot more going on there than people not getting paid enough.

 

[WorldTraveler]

but you and others have concluded that because DL gave raises they had to be doing it to keep unions out despite the fact that the leap in logic couldn't be defended in a kindergarten debate class. \

Given that the number and size of DL's compensation increases has far exceeded what has been given at any other airline and DL employees have gained so much relative to their peers, the notion that DL is only giving pay raises to keep unions out is beyond silly.

and I haven't denied that B6 might be getting exactly what it sowed WRT how it has treated its employees.

But there is also no assurance whatsoever that a union is going to improve anything. There have been plenty of examples of unionized airlines that have run completely roughshod over their people.

Unions simply do not have the track record of success you want to believe they do and non-union airlines like DL are simply not as inept at taking care of their workers as you and others want to believe that they are.

 

[Kev3188]

...There is alot more going on there than people not getting paid enough.

Agreed. In my experience, this is almost always the case when it comes to people seeking representation.

 

[WorldTraveler]

The question then is why do "people seeking representation" have different experiences than their counterparts doing the same job at the same company.

There are clearly tens of thousands of PMNW DL personnel who are happy and have no interest in unionization.

To argue that you see things differently raises significant questions about you instead of the company.

 

[ThirdSeatHero]

but you and others have concluded that because DL gave raises they had to be doing it to keep unions out despite the fact that the leap in logic couldn't be defended in a kindergarten debate class. \

Given that the number and size of DL's compensation increases has far exceeded what has been given at any other airline and DL employees have gained so much relative to their peers, the notion that DL is only giving pay raises to keep unions out is beyond silly.

and I haven't denied that B6 might be getting exactly what it sowed WRT how it has treated its employees.

But there is also no assurance whatsoever that a union is going to improve anything. There have been plenty of examples of unionized airlines that have run completely roughshod over their people.

Unions simply do not have the track record of success you want to believe they do and non-union airlines like DL are simply not as inept at taking care of their workers as you and others want to believe that they are.

 
There is recorded history of Delta giving raises in the middle of organizing drives - thats not my opinion - thats FACT.  To say they haven't just lost you your kindergarten debate trophy.
 
As I said before, just because DL is on top/ or near top now doesn't mean a thing. If UA or AA get JCBAs and DL drifts back to 2nd or 3rd, then in a few years a UA or AA poster could be on this same board making the same grandiose statements about pay ....union negotiated increases have far exceeded what has been given at any other airline... will it mean anything then?  Again - the industry is cyclical.
 
Running roughshod over employees doesn't happen solely to unionized carriers.
 
I never said DL was inept, not my argument.

 

[Kev3188]

The question then is why do "people seeking representation" have different experiences than their counterparts doing the same job at the same company.There are clearly tens of thousands of PMNW DL personnel who are happy and have no interest in unionization.To argue that you see things differently raises significant questions about you instead of the company.

...and there are 1000's of PMDL signing cards as well...

Not to mention all of the post-merger hires doing the same.

This was just a so-so attempt at isolation in your part. Kinda obvious. You can do better.

 

[WorldTraveler]

or perhaps the fact that there are plenty of content DL people who won't vote for a union is proof enough that people's perceptions of how they are treated varies widely.

And we have been thru the fact that DL employees have long used the threat of unionization as a tool to ensure the company keeps coughing up the dough.

And let's also be very clear that the profit sharing gains that DL has shared with its employees FAR EXCEEDS ANY schedule pay raise.

an 8% increase in compensation without giving up a thing is virtually unheard of in the industry.

 

[700UW]

Last year PMUS ramp got a 9.53% raise without giving anything up.

 

[WorldTraveler]

Which is why I said "virtually unheard of"

and if you put all of PMUS ramp's compensation increases beside DL's, PMUS ramp would be well below what DL employees got.

Parker wanted the merger to go smoothly and has thrown some money at labor to make that happen.

There is no assurance he will continue to increase pay.

And the question still is whether a union at B6 will result in any meaningful increase in pay above what they were planning to give anyway.

 

[Dog Wonder]

DL has long had a history of paying its people more because they gain increased efficiency.

It's really quite amazing that you find it dubious for DL to use the very same strategy that WN uses; the only difference is that DL is not unionized for most employee groups while WN is.

dispense with the nonsense that DL acts to keep unions out even though DL uses a strategy that existed long before WN was ever around.

Sayeth the Jabberwock.

 

[700UW]

Better pension, better and cheaper insurance, and most of all job security.