If Us Airways Goes ..

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Fubijaakr said:
It tells me they're probalby TWA or USAir guys who are blaming the Union for their loss of jobs. It also tells me they're morons.

It wasn't the Unions who killed TWA and are killing USAir. Its poor management and worse managers.

Unions don't make the life and death decisions in corporations. Managers do. TWA and USAir have had the most dicked up managements in airline history since Frank Lorenzo was ousted.

So, you're roommates are just using misplaced bitterness coupled with guilt over scabbing to generate that anger.

I pity you.
[post="175710"][/post]​
<_< And what makes you an expert on TWA, or USair? As for TWA, YOU DON'T KNOW SQWAT!!! You must be from Tulsa!!
 
linemech said:
Nothing lasts forever, that's another one you may have never heard.
Someday the tables may turn and YOU may be the one who is just grateful for a job ! :down:

Sky high states: Linemech is RIGHT. In 1979, Air Florida was the up and coming airline! "Remember them?" :lol:
 
Fubijaakr said:
linemech,

I guess you don't recognize sarcasm. It is jetBlue's modus operandi to hire furloughed/distressed pilots, mechanics and F/As then pay them below standard wages and benefits.

A typical non-union operation preying on distressed labor just to make a buck.

Gotta love Needleman and his cronies.
[post="174108"][/post]​
I have to take exception with what you just said. I am a US Chairman and have been for a long time. Up until this year US was my "Airline of Choice". However, Because of horrible service, bad attitudes, unreliability and filthy airplanes, etc......, I have been flying everyone else including SW and JB. No comparison. Their people have great attitudes and I don't think they are going to ruin a good thing by bringing distressed former EE's on board nor ones that don't care about the customer or realize that without the customer, there is no airline or job.
 
Fubijaakr said:
It tells me they're probalby TWA or USAir guys who are blaming the Union for their loss of jobs. It also tells me they're morons.

It wasn't the Unions who killed TWA and are killing USAir. Its poor management and worse managers.

Unions don't make the life and death decisions in corporations. Managers do. TWA and USAir have had the most dicked up managements in airline history since Frank Lorenzo was ousted.

So, you're roommates are just using misplaced bitterness coupled with guilt over scabbing to generate that anger.

I pity you.
[post="175710"][/post]​
It's a mix of Unions and inept management!! The Unions killed Eastern!! Look at the american automobile manufacturers. All highly "union" and putting out inferior products. The Big 3 are continuing to struggle financially. Look at all of the incentives that they have to offer to even get someone in the showroom. Now, look at Honda, etc. NO UNIONS, highest quality and resale values, no pricing incentives and very little discounting, etc. That pretty much says it all. The unions are a problem in the airline industry. What are they doing for you?? Do they continue to pay you your wages when you get furloughed?? I don't think so!!
 
balloonguy said:
It's a mix of Unions and inept management!! The Unions killed Eastern!! Look at the american automobile manufacturers. All highly "union" and putting out inferior products. The Big 3 are continuing to struggle financially. Look at all of the incentives that they have to offer to even get someone in the showroom. Now, look at Honda, etc. NO UNIONS, highest quality and resale values, no pricing incentives and very little discounting, etc. That pretty much says it all. The unions are a problem in the airline industry. What are they doing for you?? Do they continue to pay you your wages when you get furloughed?? I don't think so!!
[post="205222"][/post]​

You failed to mention that at Honda and other Japanese companies, managment recieves their pay according to profit. You put out the figures, you are rewarded. You fail to provide the product or are part of a unprofitable company, your ass is out the door. Perhaps if American airlines would take on this part of the work ethics of the Japanese instead of cherry picking (no pun intended :p ) the ones that suit your reality, maybe there would be upper managers that would spend more time growing the company and less time trying to break labor. The unions may be part of the problem but greed (LORENZO....HELLO!!!)and arrogance is another from upper management is another. <_< ;)
 
The unions don't design and market the cars. Management does that. The assembly of the cars is just fine. If there's any fault, it's almost exclusively that of the engineering and design, as well as not designing the kind of cars the public wants to buy.
 
balloonguy said:
It's a mix of Unions and inept management!! The Unions killed Eastern!! Look at the american automobile manufacturers. All highly "union" and putting out inferior products. The Big 3 are continuing to struggle financially. Look at all of the incentives that they have to offer to even get someone in the showroom. Now, look at Honda, etc. NO UNIONS, highest quality and resale values, no pricing incentives and very little discounting, etc. That pretty much says it all. The unions are a problem in the airline industry. What are they doing for you?? Do they continue to pay you your wages when you get furloughed?? I don't think so!!
[post="205222"][/post]​

I think your automotive analogy is sort of wacky! What do unions have to do with dealer incentives? A legit argument can be made that domestic cars require more workers per car because of work rules. But non-union auto plants have significantly higher injury rates for their workers because of the Lack of work rules.
Your "highest quality" statement is also right out of a time warp. Toyota long ago passed Honda in the quality dept among the japanese and in the only long term quality study done, (JD Power) the non-luxury brand with the least problems over a three year period was: Ta Da BUICK!!!! (their still american arn't they?) Toyota was 2nd and Honda 3rd. How'd those Union boys do that?
 
QUOTE(balloonguy @ Dec 1 2004, 08:48 PM)
It's a mix of Unions and inept management!! The Unions killed Eastern!! Look at the american automobile manufacturers. All highly "union" and putting out inferior products. The Big 3 are continuing to struggle financially. Look at all of the incentives that they have to offer to even get someone in the showroom. Now, look at Honda, etc. NO UNIONS, highest quality and resale values, no pricing incentives and very little discounting, etc. That pretty much says it all. The unions are a problem in the airline industry. What are they doing for you?? Do they continue to pay you your wages when you get furloughed?? I don't think so!!

The unions killed EAL? Let me guess, you are not union. What the union did at EAL was to show Lorenzo who had integrity and backbones intact. Lorenzo killed EAL, as planned. He desired so badly to rid EAL of any union activity he cut off his nose to spite his face.

I appreciate the EAL mechs and related for the battle they fought, wish their nerve was still present in our profession.
 
balloonguy said:
The unions are a problem in the airline industry. What are they doing for you?? Do they continue to pay you your wages when you get furloughed?? I don't think so!!
[post="205222"][/post]​

Although I may not agree with the car comparison, I do agree that at most cases (not all), Unions are problems and can't adapt to change. I most sure its got to be very tough to get your work rule cut and slaries slashed, but you are in this industry cause you like it and at least you have a job. For my case I have been furloughed for the last 3 years and the AFA hasn't done nothing for me except ask for dues. Not hear to critisize but its the truth. What I am fully against is the people that go with the chant I want full pay and the hell with the rest. Like I said before no one is holding a gun to your head saying you have to work for an airline. So if you are unhappy with work rules, pay, or change, well I think you should look for another job and let the people who wish to work here, even if its for $5.15 an hour, let them have an airline to work in. This is my opnion, now I hope I don't get a rage of insults for stating my mind.
 
AAmech said:
I think your automotive analogy is sort of wacky! What do unions have to do with dealer incentives? A legit argument can be made that domestic cars require more workers per car because of work rules. But non-union auto plants have significantly higher injury rates for their workers because of the Lack of work rules.
Your "highest quality" statement is also right out of a time warp. Toyota long ago passed Honda in the quality dept among the japanese and in the only long term quality study done, (JD Power) the non-luxury brand with the least problems over a three year period was: Ta Da BUICK!!!! (their still american arn't they?) Toyota was 2nd and Honda 3rd. How'd those Union boys do that?
[post="205259"][/post]​


I think you're sort of whacky. Toyota and Honda are neck and neck. Camry is boring and plain. Accord is sophisticated and high tech. Honda's have a higher re-sale value (they LEAD)!! My point was that Japanese Mfg's. are much less unionized and quality is "Job 1". Management doesn't build the American pieces of S---!! Unionized, non-caring workers do. You won't find Coke bottles inside the door of a Japanese or for that matter European car.

Also, Buick is right out of the mid-20th Century. You names one car brand. Now, name all of the other GM, Ford and Chrysler pieces of crap. GO Unions!! Sure.
 
balloonguy said:
I think you're sort of whacky. Toyota and Honda are neck and neck. Camry is boring and plain. Accord is sophisticated and high tech. Honda's have a higher re-sale value (they LEAD)!! My point was that Japanese Mfg's. are much less unionized and quality is "Job 1". Management doesn't build the American pieces of S---!! Unionized, non-caring workers do. You won't find Coke bottles inside the door of a Japanese or for that matter European car.

Also, Buick is right out of the mid-20th Century. You names one car brand. Now, name all of the other GM, Ford and Chrysler pieces of crap. GO Unions!! Sure.
[post="205467"][/post]​


Hmmm . . . . . my American car has a Nippon Denso alternator and starter and Mitsubishi engine. I've replaced that alternator 3 times and the starter once in the last 15 years. Those are the only parts I've had to replace and they're Japanese. The Mitsubishi engine has 100k miles on it and is starting to smoke at start up and have piston slap. I had a European made BMW back in the mid-80s that had a leaky gas tank, bad muffler, and a cracked head within 6 months of taking delivery.

On the other hand, my Jeep with it's AMERICAN made engine has 200k, never been opened, does not burn oil and runs great. The Pacific Rim cars are dull, boring, and all look alike. I can't tell a Honda from a Izuzu. At least the European cars have some style. I love walking by a Lexus and telling the owner . . "nice Honda . . . that must be a new model."
 
balloonguy said:
It's a mix of Unions and inept management!! The Unions killed Eastern!! Look at the american automobile manufacturers. All highly "union" and putting out inferior products. The Big 3 are continuing to struggle financially. Look at all of the incentives that they have to offer to even get someone in the showroom. Now, look at Honda, etc. NO UNIONS, highest quality and resale values, no pricing incentives and very little discounting, etc. That pretty much says it all. The unions are a problem in the airline industry. What are they doing for you?? Do they continue to pay you your wages when you get furloughed?? I don't think so!!
[post="205222"][/post]​


Although I agree with you in part, how do you explain that the most unionized airline is WN
 
USAir management signed the union contracts too. USAir it was who merged three airlines in the late 80's and chose to adopt the highest-cost contracts of the 3. USAir chose, and still chooses, a short-haul model using little airplanes in the most inneficient airspace and airports in the U. S. US Airways unions have given back billions and costs are still highest in the industry and the company still can't make money. Draw your own conclusions.
 
It appears as if the tipping point has been reached at US Airways. I would expect the airline to announce chapter 7 status within the next 30 days...or much sooner.

I am sure jetBlue executives would like to see US Airways remain a going concern throughout all of 2005, if for nothing more than to keep the other wolves at bay until they themselves can seize on new markets opened up by US Airways demise at a later time in 2006 or beyond. It now appears that jetBlue will be forced to watch from the sidelines as other airlines (DL & WN primarily) try and fill in the vacuum left behind when US Airways folds the tent in the very near future. The only good thing is that perhaps some markets in the east will see improved pricing power with the short-term drop in capacity in Florida - NYC and other NE markets where jetBlue and US Airways overlap.
 
The unions have never killed an airline.It always had been bad management that wrecks a company.The unions can only do what the management allows them to do as the jobs belong to the company.

Most people would agree that SWA is a successful airline and it is the most highly unionized airline flying.You union bashers had better get your facts correct before spewing the typical anti-union propoganda.

Frank Lorenzo killed EAL,not the mechanics or pilots.

UAL and USA is in serious trouble because they have taken and taken more from the employees and driven employee morale into the basement.An employer can only take so much from its employees without consequences.

I think it was Sir Issac Newton that stated " That for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction".
 
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