I'll just leave this here....

[WorldTraveler]

and yet US people on average make less money.

Great scope.

NO money.

US has the highest rate of outsourcing of all US legacy airlines.

it's a fact, jack - which explains precisely why you try so hard to pretend it isn't the truth

 

[700UW]

So then how come PMUS' overhauls the majority of its own overhauls while DL outsources them all.

Flies empty planes half way around the world for cabin mods.
 
Typical when the only narrative that fits your m.o. is the numbers, not the actual work being done.

 

[WorldTraveler]

DL outsources less TOTAL maintenance that US.

PERIOD.

DL INSOURCES enough work to equal 20-25% of DL's total maintenance spend on its own fleet.

those are facts which you can't deny though you try very hard to do so.

Only a typical union salesboy would argue with such facts.

 

[topDawg]

DL outsources less TOTAL maintenance that US.

your posting 2013 numbers.....2014/2015 are going to be a lot closer to US. My understanding is its over 50%. 
 

your problem, dawg, is that you haven't learned to work within a structure that you don't control. You just happen to be part of the percentage of employees that were never cut out for working for someone and you wouldn't be happy because you can't call the shots.

oh good lawd. Again, shut up and do as mother Delta tells me an be happy. Thanks Leo.... 
 

You couldn't come close to building a hangar and putting tools in it for $55M in the US whether Mexico flies or not.

Okay, first i want to know what the price is? you know so tell us
second, you once again, are talking out of your ass. Delta TechOps, the maintenance arm of Delta Air Lines, has opened a $55 million joint maintenance, repair and overhaul (MRO) facility with Grupo Aeromexico in Queretaro, the site of a growing aerospace industry cluster.
 

and as much as you get bent out of shape about DL's outsourcing, keep in mind that AA and UA outsource AND DO NOT REPLACE THAT WORK WITH INSOURCED WORK.

Once again this is completely false. I don't know why anyone would be stupid enough to believe this tag line. 
 
If Delta replaced the work they outsourced with insourcing then DWH/TPA wouldn't be closed. Its that simple. 
On the airframe side Delta does very little insourcing. The only regular customers Delta really has is HA and governments. Almost everything else is random drop in work. 
 
a big reason? Delta doesn't have the economies of scale to do heavy airframe work. Delta also doesn't want to do that work because 1) the planes take up tail docks for to long 2) is profitable but the margins "aren't good enough" (probably the dumbest thing I have ever heard in my life) 
 
 
The insourcing Delta does is mostly engines and backshop work. Most of that work doesn't take up any space that use to be taken up by Delta work, they just simple take the space of gaps in-between Delta work. 

I know full well that you will never accept the concept but DL does less net outsourcing than even PMAA when you factor in the insourcing that DL does.

Because that is a stupid make Delta look good metric. Not only that but you have no idea how much insourcing UA and AA do and don't want to make that comparison. 
Also you are using numbers that are 2 years old and don't have the smallest clue what the current numbers are. 
 

and given that DL airport employees make more than their peers at every other legacy airline, a union would reduce pay - but it might make you and others feel more in control - as they watch their pay go down.

Of course it would. Because that is how things really work. 

 

[topDawg]

Clueless the PMUS scope is very clear.
 
No line maintenance can be outsourced.
 
50% of billable heavy maintenance must be done in-house, and now PMUS components are starting to be sent to TUL for overhaul soon.
 
Keep up the lies and misinformation.
 
Why do you lie all the time?

that can't be true 700. WT has said in the past that that wouldn't happen. Delta will win. 
 
And if AA does end up doing more in-house work than Delta, WT would find some other stupid stat that makes Delta seem better. 
 
"Uh well Delta does more PW4000 overhauls in-house than AA/US!!!!!" 

 

[WorldTraveler]

DL does $500million in insourced MRO revenue which is about 20-25% of what DL spends on maintaining its own maintenance.

the net outsourcing for DL is indeed much lower.

We'll see what US actually comes in at but US is retiring a lot of older aircraft so the total maintenance spend has been flat.

A low percentage is great but if it is of a mjch smaller base which is where AA is going because it is retiring so many older aircraft and its maintenance budget is shrinking, it isn't exactly a huge accomplishment.

Feel free to let us know what statistic besides revenue you would like to use; so far as I know, you want to be paid in dollars and not a pat on the head. Dl values its maintenance work in the same way as you want to be paid.

 

[topDawg]

the net outsourcing for DL is indeed much lower.

you don't know that. it was lower in 2013 but has been going up post merger.

We'll see what US actually comes in at but US is retiring a lot of older aircraft so the total maintenance spend has been flat.

well at least we know what your excuse will be when Delta passes them.

A low percentage is great but if it is of a mjch smaller base which is where AA is going because it is retiring so many older aircraft and its maintenance budget is shrinking, it isn't exactly a huge accomplishment.

err as of right now AA can outsource 35% period. Those damn union contracts.
Of course maybe they will take a page out of Delta's book and just ignore the contract.

Feel free to let us know what statistic besides revenue you would like to use; so far as I know, you want to be paid in dollars and not a pat on the head. Dl values its maintenance work in the same way as you want to be paid.

Revenue is fine, you need to compare apples to apples.

If you want to count insourcing in outsourcing % thats fine. But you need to find the revenue numbers from UA and AA (along with TAESL) before you can compare Delta to them with MRO revenue. Right now you are comparing apples to dog **** simply because it proves your false point.


and I'm still waiting on what it really costs to build a 9 bay hangar since Delta lied about the 55M number.

 

[WorldTraveler]

AA and US maintenance do not have joint maintenance contracts so AA's outsourcing is a combination of AA and US'.

you seem to want to forget that DL's level of outsourcing was much lower before the merger but forget that US has much higher levels of outsourcing. The proof is on AA and rather its unions to bring that work back inhouse at AA; I solidly predict it will not happen.

as for DL's level of maintenance outsourcing, I will be happy to admit if it is higher but DL is also growing its insourcing - you yourself have noted that.

as for Mexico, I never said that DL didn't spend a bunch of money but I still assert that it would cost a whole lot more to build and provide tooling for a hangar in the US - and it wouldn't come anywhere close to being enough capacity to move much outsourced maintenance back inhouse. Airframe overhauls are extremely facility intensive.

You also fail to note that DL's fleet is far larger than NW's and they got rid of huge amounts of their maintenance capacity before the merger - along with their AMFA mechanics - and DL couldn't come close to replacing all of that capacity. TPA and even DFW couldn't make much of a dent in that need.

I want to see DL bring work inhouse but you are barking up a tree if you think DL will bring huge amounts of airframe overhauls back inhouse. There will be a whole lof ot other work coming back before airframe overhauls happen, if it ever does.

 

[700UW]

US retired the  734s last year, and then the 762s, a few older A320s that were HP's, there was no mass retirement, and US took a bunch of A321s last year along with a few A332s.
 
PMUS has one of the youngest fleets out of the legacies.
Those are facts.
 
Come up with new lie and misinformation.

 

[WorldTraveler]

US maintenance spend has been flat for years.

They are not growing their maintenance spend.

Any improvement in maintenance outsourcing is coming because their maintenance spend is not growing.

 

[topDawg]

AA and US maintenance do not have joint maintenance contracts so AA's outsourcing is a combination of AA and US'.

Uh no. That isn't how it works. Its AA on its own. US on its own. Simply because we do not know where AA/US will go with MX you can't simply lump the two together.

you seem to want to forget that DL's level of outsourcing was much lower before the merger but forget that US has much higher levels of outsourcing.

I don't forget any of that. Fact is, Delta + Northwest was at 39%. They then went up to 42% (so 3% higher than the combined DL/NW) and have kept growing post merger. So you can blame the 15% jump on NW, thats fine and well, but what about the 3%+ growth in the post merger world? is that NWs fault too? AA? UA? US? who you going to blame it on since you can't put that on Delta?

The proof is on AA and rather its unions to bring that work back inhouse at AA; I solidly predict it will not happen.

I don't know what will happen at AA, but till it doesn't happen I am not going to play guessing game to try to make Delta look better. For now, the AA unions have shown they are the best at keeping work in-house. Will it change with US? maybe. I don't know.

as for DL's level of maintenance outsourcing, I will be happy to admit if it is higher but DL is also growing its insourcing - you yourself have noted that.

While some work has been coming in, all the work they are sending out is covering that up.

as for Mexico, I never said that DL didn't spend a bunch of money but I still assert that it would cost a whole lot more to build and provide tooling for a hangar in the US - and it wouldn't come anywhere close to being enough capacity to move much outsourced maintenance back inhouse. Airframe overhauls are extremely facility intensive.

What the hell are you talking about? A 9 bay hangar would be pretty damn close to being able to handle all of the HMVs sent out. You know how I know? because the original plan had been to send all of DL + NW + AM overhaul/HMVs to that hangar.
And again, I will ask, just how much will it take to build a hangar/base in the US for Delta to do its overhauls at?

You also fail to note that DL's fleet is far larger than NW's and they got rid of huge amounts of their maintenance capacity before the merger - along with their AMFA mechanics - and DL couldn't come close to replacing all of that capacity. TPA and even DFW couldn't make much of a dent in that need.

Once again, you don't know what you are talking about. NW brought most of its hangar capacity with it when they merged with Delta. The biggest part of that being MSP. Hell, technically speaking they only big piece they didn't bring with them was DLH. ATL/MSP came with the merger. (Delta later settled the ATL hangar....but stand by for that)

I want to see DL bring work inhouse but you are barking up a tree if you think DL will bring huge amounts of airframe overhauls back inhouse. There will be a whole lof ot other work coming back before airframe overhauls happen, if it ever does.

You only want Delta to do whatever Delta says is the best thing.

 

[WorldTraveler]

no, you are simply wrong.

DL's outsourcing percentage jumped by 14 percentage points to over 39% when NW stopped reporting on its own certificate and their maintenance was done under DL's certificate.

until your recognize those basic facts, everything else is just noise

 

[topDawg]

no, you are simply wrong.

DL's outsourcing percentage jumped by 14 percentage points to over 39% when NW stopped reporting on its own certificate and their maintenance was done under DL's certificate.

until your recognize those basic facts, everything else is just noise

2009 was the last year NW was on it own. 
DL/NW then jumped to 39% in 2010, down to 38% in 2011, then up to 41.3% in 2012 and 41.8% in 2012. 
 
You have many other questions you didn't answer. I want to know the hangar costs and just how many bays Delta needs to do the work in-house. 

 

[WorldTraveler]

DL was at 25% in 2009 on its own.

To try to argue that NW didn't dramatically pull DL's rate of outsourcing UP is in complete DISAGREEMENT to the basic facts.

And DL also began its $2 billion refurbishment of its int'l fleet cabins shortly after the merger. Do you realize that while DL decided to keep its older aircraft and send out the cabin mods, other airlines have just been parking those aircraft or in the case of other carriers, keeping the cabins the same way they were decades before.

DL has been doing $500 million in interior mods per year for 6 years and its rate of outsourcing has gone up by 3% since the merger.

and at the same time, DL managed to buy and bring into the fleet more than 50 M90s.

if DL was outsourcing as much as you claim, they couldn't possibly have done as much maintenance as they have done and kept their outsourcing number that low.

as for the percentage of employees cut, NW cut 40% of its workforce between 2001 and 2009 while DL's percentage was 35%, the lowest percentage cut of the legacies that filed in the decade of the 2000s.

 

[topDawg]

DL was at 25% in 2009 on its own.

To try to argue that NW didn't dramatically pull DL's rate of outsourcing UP is in complete DISAGREEMENT to the basic facts.

okay. you aren't reading again.

I SAID NW ACCOUNTED FOR A 15%ish JUMP IN OUTSOURCING %. Go you understand that? in 2009 when Delta was OWN IT OWN, they did about 25% of work out of house. In 2010, when DL/NW merged the outsourcing jumped to 39% because of Northwest. In 2011 it dropped to 38%....now my question to you is, how do you explain the jump from 38% to 41.8% post NW merger if Delta is doing all this insourcing like you say?
 

And DL also began its $2 billion refurbishment of its int'l fleet cabins shortly after the merger. Do you realize that while DL decided to keep its older aircraft and send out the cabin mods, other airlines have just been parking those aircraft or in the case of other carriers, keeping the cabins the same way they were decades before.

here is what i will try to do for you. I will try to find a single ounce of give a crap for you........

nope nothing. This is all work that should be done in-house. period.
 

DL has been doing $500 million in interior mods per year for 6 years and its rate of outsourcing has gone up by 3% since the merger.

okay?
 

and at the same time, DL managed to buy and bring into the fleet more than 50 M90s.

Of which the majority of work was outsourced.
Engines? outsourced.
HMV? Outsourced
Conversion to Delta? Outsourced.
 

if DL was outsourcing as much as you claim, they couldn't possibly have done as much maintenance as they have done and kept their outsourcing number that low.

Then exactly what part am I missing? if i am wrong then back it up.
 

as for the percentage of employees cut, NW cut 40% of its workforce between 2001 and 2009 while DL's percentage was 35%, the lowest percentage cut of the legacies that filed in the decade of the 2000s.

you love your little feel good, has nothing to do with the discussion feel good facts at the end don't you Delta PR?

Still waiting on that hangar cost thing.