IT WAS JUST A MATTER OF TIME !

You know WT, the original OP and topic of this thread was how WN had raised fares 39% and how the myth of WN low fares was broken. Maybe with this awful economy that is the limit for now.

I know that you don't want to hear this but Gary Kelly has stated a few times that ATL will be WN's largest city. Right now LAS is the largest city and there was an article in the Las Vegas Review-Journal where he was quoted that LAS will grow. So if LAS will grow and ATL will be the largest city, I see growth. From what I know of the man and the company, he doesn't reveal much of his cards and when he does, he can be more dismal. So while you may not want to believe it and have your spreadsheets surround your computer, I wouldn't put too much stock in the theory that WN ATL will not grow.

Last time I passed through ATL, there were all kinds of posters proclaiming ATL as DL's home town and how all of a sudden that the Red Coats were coming back. Why this attention to the Customer? Is it the dismal view of the Customer has of DL right now? Is is that DL knows of the Customer Service that WN and that the ATL Customer base will want to try out the new guys in town?
Not to one up but, MDW is now over LAS. LAS pulled back flights per Intel I am hearing from DAL. Not much but, ATL will become the largest Op in the new WN System. I do believe both Carriers will remain an important part of the Atlanta flying experience, but with a different cost structure. I wonder who will be cheaper to fly on?
Three guesses....American, United/Continental or US Airways. LOL
 
Perhaps we should keep in mind that certain markets that WN doesn't fly is because WN's demands aren't met. At my location we are aware of this because circa 05, or around that area, WN wanted a gate that was occupied by NWA at the time. Why? Because the concessions, the amenities and easy access for passengers was at that location. WN would not negotiate any other gate. Currently the face of the airport is changing with construction that should be completed by 2012. Currently there is one sticking point that makes it difficult to bring in any other low-fare airline. And we are working on rectifying that issue so that not only WN, but other low-cost competition can arrive and stay ;)
 
Perhaps we should keep in mind that certain markets that WN doesn't fly is because WN's demands aren't met. At my location we are aware of this because circa 05, or around that area, WN wanted a gate that was occupied by NWA at the time. Why? Because the concessions, the amenities and easy access for passengers was at that location. WN would not negotiate any other gate. Currently the face of the airport is changing with construction that should be completed by 2012. Currently there is one sticking point that makes it difficult to bring in any other low-fare airline. And we are working on rectifying that issue so that not only WN, but other low-cost competition can arrive and stay ;)
Perhaps some airports are not willing to inconvenience every other airline in order to accommodate a newcomer, even if that newcomer is WN which does have a pretty good track record of stimulating traffic initially.
But airports also recognize 30 plus years into deregulation that what often happens is that WN often just moves the traffic from other carriers to WN... the US airline industry is quite mature... there is not a whole lot of new traffic to stimulate. You can add a few new routes but very few markets do not have access to some low fare service either at that airport or at an adjacent airport. Thus, WN is not creating a whole lot of new traffic as much as they are rearranging the traffic that exists in the US.
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That fact can be born out at the national level. If you look at the winners and losers in the domestic marketplace over the past ten years, and then go back 20 years, and then go back 30 years, you see that WN has shifted the domestic market much more to itself. Few network carriers are stronger domestically today than they were in 2001 (before 9/11). DL and UA have grown their domestic market share largely through mergers - with the difference that DL is unique among the big 3 - AA, DL, and UA - in being able to retain its share in most of the medium and small markets where WN has grown the most.
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Airports also have long term contracts with other airlines and they can't screw one tenant in order to please another one.

You know WT, the original OP and topic of this thread was how WN had raised fares 39% and how the myth of WN low fares was broken. Maybe with this awful economy that is the limit for now.

I know that you don't want to hear this but Gary Kelly has stated a few times that ATL will be WN's largest city. Right now LAS is the largest city and there was an article in the Las Vegas Review-Journal where he was quoted that LAS will grow. So if LAS will grow and ATL will be the largest city, I see growth. From what I know of the man and the company, he doesn't reveal much of his cards and when he does, he can be more dismal. So while you may not want to believe it and have your spreadsheets surround your computer, I wouldn't put too much stock in the theory that WN ATL will not grow.

Last time I passed through ATL, there were all kinds of posters proclaiming ATL as DL's home town and how all of a sudden that the Red Coats were coming back. Why this attention to the Customer? Is it the dismal view of the Customer has of DL right now? Is is that DL knows of the Customer Service that WN and that the ATL Customer base will want to try out the new guys in town?
Yes, WN's fares have gone up by 39% - and that was driven almost entirely by the end of WN's huge fuel hedge bonanza that allowed them to aggressively grow into key competitive markets like PHL and DEN... but WN's success then was driven by its low priced fuel which was unique in those markets. And as the low price leader, it was up to WN to decide when they wanted to raise fares.
In PHL, they built a solid position but US still has a 4 to 1 margin over WN domestically.
In STL, AA decided they strategically didn't need STL and WN was quite free to expand.. and AA wasn't able to retain control of the local market.
You can look at many other small and medium sized cities and see WN's growth over the past 10 years, but much of it came as a result of the fuel hedges.
Their profitability came because they could price at levels low enough to expand in those markets at other carriers' expenses - but still at levels at which WN could profit.
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WN has to pay market prices for fuel now - that is their hedges have not been anymore successful at reducing their fuel prices than anyone else's. WN is no more able to aggressively grow than any other airline.
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The fact that WN has said that their revenue is now growing at levels far below the rest of the industry shows their ability to grow through aggressive pricing is over... and that is precisely why they are cutting capacity and halting their growth until capacity catches up with demand at the fare levels necessary to support current fuel prices.
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As for ATL, DL has recognized their customer service took a hit post NW merger; the red coats and customer service focus aren't just for ATL... but DL also realizes that ATL is their crown jewel and they will protect it.
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Regardless of customer service levels, even in ATL, DL has continued to maintain a 15-20% average fare premium over FL not only in the ATL domestic market as a whole but also in nearly every market in which they compete. FL does have the advantage in a few small markets - but these are the markets which are most in jeopardy w/ WN because they are so small that DL has not attempted to outgun them on capacity - remember the rule about the average fare differences if capacity by one carrier is 4 to 1 times larger than any other carrier?

Yes, WN may well remain a lower cost, lower fare alternative in ATL, but that is the position that FL has had for years - and one which they recognize is not sustainable. You can't continue to be second fiddle to another carrier and expect to surve long-term. The whole purpose of the WN acquisition of FL was to build on what FL had by benefit of WN's network... they now have to deliver on that.
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Kelly and others made alot of statements about what ATL would be - but that was all before the run up in fuel prices, WN's very substandard revenue performance, and their decision to halt capacity growth... all of which were the basis of growing ATL. Now add in FL employees who are realizing they didn't get such a great deal, and WN's merger with FL might come to earth and reality just as much as other carriers merger plans before.
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I still contend that WN's acquisition of FL will be considered a success if within 2 years WN's operation in ATL is the SAME SIZE as it is now - but WN will have been able to increase average fare levels to WN's levels - which are also 15-20% lower than WN's.
WN's first priority is getting revenue levels on original FL markets up to WN levels... growth will only come when WN's ATL operation generates revenue levels comparable to other large WN business markets such as MDW.
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IN the process of working through their own performance and merger related issues, WN may lose the "punch" they originally thought they would have as they entered the ATL market.
In the meantime, DL continues to pull out all the stops to protect its hometown market and add capacity that will make it even harder for WN to grow even when it decides it can.
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The "just a matter of time" for WN to make an impact in ATL is being pushed further and further back with DL entrenching stronger and stronger, making it less likely that WN will achieve what it originally intended to accomplish.
 
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Perhaps some airports are not willing to inconvenience every other airline in order to accommodate a newcomer, even if that newcomer is WN which does have a pretty good track record of stimulating traffic initially.
But airports also recognize 30 plus years into deregulation that what often happens is that WN often just moves the traffic from other carriers to WN... the US airline industry is quite mature... there is not a whole lot of new traffic to stimulate. You can add a few new routes but very few markets do not have access to some low fare service either at that airport or at an adjacent airport. Thus, WN is not creating a whole lot of new traffic as much as they are rearranging the traffic that exists in the US.
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That fact can be born out at the national level. If you look at the winners and losers in the domestic marketplace over the past ten years, and then go back 20 years, and then go back 30 years, you see that WN has shifted the domestic market much more to itself. Few network carriers are stronger domestically today than they were in 2001 (before 9/11). DL and UA have grown their domestic market share largely through mergers - with the difference that DL is unique among the big 3 - AA, DL, and UA - in being able to retain its share in most of the medium and small markets where WN has grown the most.
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Airports also have long term contracts with other airlines and they can't screw one tenant in order to please another one.


Yes, WN's fares have gone up by 39% - and that was driven almost entirely by the end of WN's huge fuel hedge bonanza that allowed them to aggressively grow into key competitive markets like PHL and DEN... but WN's success then was driven by its low priced fuel which was unique in those markets. And as the low price leader, it was up to WN to decide when they wanted to raise fares.
In PHL, they built a solid position but US still has a 4 to 1 margin over WN domestically.
In STL, AA decided they strategically didn't need STL and WN was quite free to expand.. and AA wasn't able to retain control of the local market.
You can look at many other small and medium sized cities and see WN's growth over the past 10 years, but much of it came as a result of the fuel hedges.
Their profitability came because they could price at levels low enough to expand in those markets at other carriers' expenses - but still at levels at which WN could profit.
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WN has to pay market prices for fuel now - that is their hedges have not been anymore successful at reducing their fuel prices than anyone else's. WN is no more able to aggressively grow than any other airline.
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The fact that WN has said that their revenue is now growing at levels far below the rest of the industry shows their ability to grow through aggressive pricing is over... and that is precisely why they are cutting capacity and halting their growth until capacity catches up with demand at the fare levels necessary to support current fuel prices.
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As for ATL, DL has recognized their customer service took a hit post NW merger; the red coats and customer service focus aren't just for ATL... but DL also realizes that ATL is their crown jewel and they will protect it.
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Regardless of customer service levels, even in ATL, DL has continued to maintain a 15-20% average fare premium over FL not only in the ATL domestic market as a whole but also in nearly every market in which they compete. FL does have the advantage in a few small markets - but these are the markets which are most in jeopardy w/ WN because they are so small that DL has not attempted to outgun them on capacity - remember the rule about the average fare differences if capacity by one carrier is 4 to 1 times larger than any other carrier?

Yes, WN may well remain a lower cost, lower fare alternative in ATL, but that is the position that FL has had for years - and one which they recognize is not sustainable. You can't continue to be second fiddle to another carrier and expect to surve long-term. The whole purpose of the WN acquisition of FL was to build on what FL had by benefit of WN's network... they now have to deliver on that.
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Kelly and others made alot of statements about what ATL would be - but that was all before the run up in fuel prices, WN's very substandard revenue performance, and their decision to halt capacity growth... all of which were the basis of growing ATL. Now add in FL employees who are realizing they didn't get such a great deal, and WN's merger with FL might come to earth and reality just as much as other carriers merger plans before.
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I still contend that WN's acquisition of FL will be considered a success if within 2 years WN's operation in ATL is the SAME SIZE as it is now - but WN will have been able to increase average fare levels to WN's levels - which are also 15-20% lower than WN's.
WN's first priority is getting revenue levels on original FL markets up to WN levels... growth will only come when WN's ATL operation generates revenue levels comparable to other large WN business markets such as MDW.
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IN the process of working through their own performance and merger related issues, WN may lose the "punch" they originally thought they would have as they entered the ATL market.
In the meantime, DL continues to pull out all the stops to protect its hometown market and add capacity that will make it even harder for WN to grow even when it decides it can.
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The "just a matter of time" for WN to make an impact in ATL is being pushed further and further back with DL entrenching stronger and stronger, making it less likely that WN will achieve what it originally intended to accomplish.
Awwww, are you trying to burst my bubble? The gate is now occupied by another airline because NW went on to mate with Delta!

We are currently and actively searching for low cost airlines. WN is my favorite but any plane will do.
 
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I don't think anyone expected WN to just file schedules and fares in the ATL market... but throwing a little money around is not going to change the market... either for DL or WN. Market position will be determined by schedules, fares, and passenger preference... there is nothing that WN has done yet that says they will do anything to change DL's 4.5 to 1 dominance of the ATL domestic market - the one in which WN will compete.
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You also realize, I presume, that FL's pilots are not terribly thrilled about the offer they have been handed.... and that WN's leaders have basically told them (WN and FL pilots) to agree to a contract and seniority integration plan quickly or he might have to take actions.... could it be that WN's fabled labor relations might get dented in the months ahead... and WN's plans for ATL might not be quite as robust as even FL and WN mgmt said they would be almost a year ago - and nowhere near the growth levels that some forums fans want to see WN do?
 
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I don't think anyone expected WN to just file schedules and fares in the ATL market... but throwing a little money around is not going to change the market... either for DL or WN. Market position will be determined by schedules, fares, and passenger preference... there is nothing that WN has done yet that says they will do anything to change DL's 4.5 to 1 dominance of the ATL domestic market - the one in which WN will compete.
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You also realize, I presume, that FL's pilots are not terribly thrilled about the offer they have been handed.... and that WN's leaders have basically told them (WN and FL pilots) to agree to a contract and seniority integration plan quickly or he might have to take actions.... could it be that WN's fabled labor relations might get dented in the months ahead... and WN's plans for ATL might not be quite as robust as even FL and WN mgmt said they would be almost a year ago - and nowhere near the growth levels that some forums fans want to see WN do?
You're getting it wrong. Kelly wanted to move the process along quickly, so that they can tend to the business at hand. He told them to come up with an agreement, or he will have to do what he has to to make sure that WN operates effectively. What he said does not necessarily mean that the pilots aren't reaching an agreement, he just wants it done by a certain deadline.

You see, WT, in the union world, the other unions can't negotiate or ratify a contract until the top unions are in agreement. I assume this works in the airlines like anywhere else. A company usually doesn't fight multiple unions at once, otherwise we would have chaos. Until the pilots agree, mechanics, fa, ramp, gates, and anything else are on hold.
 
You're getting it wrong. Kelly wanted to move the process along quickly, so that they can tend to the business at hand. He told them to come up with an agreement, or he will have to do what he has to to make sure that WN operates effectively. What he said does not necessarily mean that the pilots aren't reaching an agreement, he just wants it done by a certain deadline.

You see, WT, in the union world, the other unions can't negotiate or ratify a contract until the top unions are in agreement. I assume this works in the airlines like anywhere else. A company usually doesn't fight multiple unions at once, otherwise we would have chaos. Until the pilots agree, mechanics, fa, ramp, gates, and anything else are on hold.
yes, I understand the process.... and I also know that airline history is full of unions who basically told mgmt to keep their timelines and ultimatums to themselves... if the FL pilots don't believe they are going to get the right deal, they will slow the process down to the point that WN may not be able to achieve its strategic objectives...
labor issues COULD very well be a part of the integration challenges WN has to deal with - and which Kelly said he wants to avoid, for very good reason.
As you are probably aware, part of the proposal to the FL pilots also involves a fence on ATL flying to make the transition a bit more palatable...but apparently that isn't seen as sufficient to FL pilots. I'm not passing judgment on the agreement but simply noting that labor unrest is often part of the merger process. The reason WN hasn't had to deal with labor unrest is at least in part tied to the fact that they have done very few mergers - and proportionally none as large as FL is relative to WN.
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But keep in mind also that WN is REDUCING system capacity - completely out of character with WN's historical patterns but necessary given that they have hit the limits of their current pricing structure. Add in that some of the markets from ATL are some of the weaker performing markets, and the likelihood is more than a little strong that WN's presence in ATL may SHRINK before it starts growing - perhaps 18 months or more down the road.
 
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yes, I understand the process.... and I also know that airline history is full of unions who basically told mgmt to keep their timelines and ultimatums to themselves... if the FL pilots don't believe they are going to get the right deal, they will slow the process down to the point that WN may not be able to achieve its strategic objectives...
labor issues COULD very well be a part of the integration challenges WN has to deal with - and which Kelly said he wants to avoid, for very good reason.
As you are probably aware, part of the proposal to the FL pilots also involves a fence on ATL flying to make the transition a bit more palatable...but apparently that isn't seen as sufficient to FL pilots. I'm not passing judgment on the agreement but simply noting that labor unrest is often part of the merger process. The reason WN hasn't had to deal with labor unrest is at least in part tied to the fact that they have done very few mergers - and proportionally none as large as FL is relative to WN.
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But keep in mind also that WN is REDUCING system capacity - completely out of character with WN's historical patterns but necessary given that they have hit the limits of their current pricing structure. Add in that some of the markets from ATL are some of the weaker performing markets, and the likelihood is more than a little strong that WN's presence in ATL may :rolleyes:SHRINK before it starts growing - perhaps 18 months or more down the road.
I think you are wrong and are missing perhaps a bigger picture. I am hearing from the so called experts, that ATL is going to be the big airport of the future. Like I said, my regional is looking for a Delta-only alternative. They were negotiating with FL and you know how that ended. I don't know what it is about ATL, but our commissioner has been eying it for some time.

You say WN is shrinking, I see it as restructuring for the future. I see WN cruising through 2012, then expanding in 2013...give or take. Let me explain something that perhaps someone not near a border may not see. Small regionals near say the Canadian borders are increasing traffi because prices are much higher in Canada. I'm seeing and experiencing it. If ATL is a target and Delta is the only service, maybe a little competition wouldn't hurt B)
 
ah yes euphemisms. "restructuring for the future"... just like the other big 4 did in the last decade and AA is doing now.
In reality, WN won't need to restructure to that extent... but the continued hopes some have that WN will swoop into ATL and accomplish what they have not done in any other network carrier hub - let alone in any DL hub.
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Perhaps a little satire is in order but you do realize that ATL is ALREADY the world's largest airport and DL operates the world's largest hub, including the largest domestic hub on the planet - hey perhaps the universe for all we know. :)
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The future is NOW and ATL is very well connected to the world including some of the fastest growing aviation regions of the world- far better than any other hub in the US.
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competition is good... hope your company keeps looking for a DL alternative.... just remember DL didn't build ATL into what it is today by not aggressively competing with whoever shows up... probably why DL has watched more than one airline share the ATL tarmac only to have them make their last departure from ATL.
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Will WN likely be a part of ATL's future? highly likely. Will WN grow beyond what FL currently offers - highly speculative at this point - and there remain no indications other than a few basic marketing efforts that WN is anywhere ready to change the ATL domestic operation it has inherited.
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IN the meantime, DL is growing its ATL domestic operation - not in 2012 or 2013 but now.
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So hurry up and get to ATL, WN. Of course some would prefer to live in fables of "what might be" but the rest of us are ready to see how this shootout turns out and rather confident the status quo won't change near as much as some people think or hope.
 
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http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-18/consumers-most-negative-on-u-s-economy-since-recession.html

Growing ATL while consumer confidence is at the lowest point in 30 years.

Smart plan for DL, I'm sure...
 
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-08-18/consumers-most-negative-on-u-s-economy-since-recession.html

Growing ATL while consumer confidence is at the lowest point in 30 years.

Smart plan for DL, I'm sure...
except that DL is able to do what is best for it in ATL BECAUSE DL at ATL is not dependent solely on what happens in the US.
Low consumer confidence affects every company in the US.
The key is how ANY company can adapt.
DL has connected ATL to the world and continues to grow its ATL operation because it has the resources within its network that can be moved around to accomplish what DL needs to do.
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All those who get all worked up about what WN is going to do in ATL seem to not grasp the concept that ATL will be just one part of WN's operation... it MIGHT eventually become one of WN's largest stations, but ATL will never be to WN anywhere close to what ATL is to DL.
WN's willingness to invest resources - and DL's willingness to defend its position in ATL are both tied to those realities..... which DL and WN execs both acutely understand even if some people on this forum don't.
 
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ah yes euphemisms. "restructuring for the future"... just like the other big 4 did in the last decade and AA is doing now.
In reality, WN won't need to restructure to that extent... but the continued hopes some have that WN will swoop into ATL and accomplish what they have not done in any other network carrier hub - let alone in any DL hub.
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Perhaps a little satire is in order but you do realize that ATL is ALREADY the world's largest airport and DL operates the world's largest hub, including the largest domestic hub on the planet - hey perhaps the universe for all we know. :)
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The future is NOW and ATL is very well connected to the world including some of the fastest growing aviation regions of the world- far better than any other hub in the US.
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competition is good... hope your company keeps looking for a DL alternative.... just remember DL didn't build ATL into what it is today by not aggressively competing with whoever shows up... probably why DL has watched more than one airline share the ATL tarmac only to have them make their last departure from ATL.
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Will WN likely be a part of ATL's future? highly likely. Will WN grfv ow beyond what FL currently offers - highly speculative at this point - and there remain no indications other than a few basic marketing efforts that WN is anywhere ready to change the ATL domestic operation it has inherited.
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IN the meantime, DL is growing its ATL domestic operation - not in 2012 or 2013 but now.
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So hurry up and get to ATL, WN. Of course some would prefer to live in fables of "what might be" but the rest of us are ready to see how this shootout turns out and rather confident the status quo won't change near as much as some people think or hope.

Oh, woe is me for not knowing that ATL is the largest airport. What's gonna happen? Will I be kicked out of the airline industry? Oh wait, I don't work for the airlines! You forget that I bring my opinion and my @$$#0!3, just like everyone else. I don't live in a fable because I realize that I won't be compensated for my opinion either way. Five years to retire and WN or not, away I go and my only mode of transportation is by land! The only images I have of the Atlanta airport is millions of people stranded.

I didn't realize that there were so many people that believe that WN will give Delta some stiff competition. I didn't realize there were so many Delta haters and I wonder if it's because of your airline, or because of you. Forget me,but most arguments come from people within your industry. Many don't work for WN. A snake knows a snake, yet no matter what they throw, you are ready to crush any argument. No matter what Delta will reign supreme! Got it!

Now I'm going to try to stay away from this thread but will return in 3 years...I hope...and see who wins the prize. I would ask everybody to quit feeding the graveyard whistler and let him dance to his own tune! You know he is gonna get the last word, so World Traveler, let me post my next post and it's all yours....
 
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