IT WAS JUST A MATTER OF TIME !

Jim apparently has something up his crotch where he somehow thinks that WN has in the past and is going to just move in and mow down the network competitors in its path....
the problem with his logic is that I made it clear not just about DL (where this thread is posted) but also about other network carriers that thinking is not accurate... apparently Jim is either incapable of digesting more than a five word sentence or perhaps he can't admit that what he sees in the passenger cabin of an airplane is NOT the sum total of what it takes to make an airline successful.

Not at all. It's just immense fun to post one or two sentences and then watch you go into a 5 page paroxysm of "proof" that something that hasn't happened yet will never happen because you have all the spreadsheets and financial statements that prove that Delta has no destiny other than to dominate the world. Rave on!
 
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glad you enjoy it, Jim.
There are indeed people who seem to think that DL is doomed as WN shows up to town.
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I hope you and others have a better understanding of WN's strategies which actually show that they do not have much of a history of invading network carrier hubs at all... and there are good reasons, including the fact that network carriers - other than when they are in BK - have done a pretty good job of defending their turf.
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The fact that DL has now allowed WN any wiggle room in SLC - its largest competitive overlap to date - and has kept FL equally in check - suggests that DL and WN will probably live quite successfully side by side - and not unlike WN and DL have coexted in SLC and how FL and DL have coexisted in ATL.
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WN is certainly a stronger and a more nationwide carrier - but they also have less to offer the ATL marketplace than FL which provided a richer amenities package than WN including assigned seats and a premium cabin.
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What is clear is that there remain a significant number of members of this board who look for every opportunity to find fault with DL's actions - probably because some people like me find no trouble finding fault wiht the AActions of other cAArriers.
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As with everything I state, let's measure the results once WN shows up in ATL... I fully expect there will be a whole lot less that has changed other than the name of the 2nd largest carrier in ATL.
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And in the meantime, WN will look for opportunities to maximinize its own revenue... and those opportunities may well cause it to decide to expAAnd in other mAArkets where it is more likely to feel the LUV of the community for bringing down airfares and opening up a new airport to more of the US.
 
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Not at all. It's just immense fun to post one or two sentences and then watch you go into a 5 page paroxysm of "proof" that something that hasn't happened yet will never happen because you have all the spreadsheets and financial statements that prove that Delta has no destiny other than to dominate the world. Rave on!
The deeper the doo-doo, the more you have slosh out of the mess. Hence a thesis is needed to answer a yes or no question. It's comical and sad all at once.
 
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If it involves longer than a 5 word sentence, a fair number of people can't keep up....no real surprise that some of you get lost.
Some - but not all -people are so accustomed to asking questions such as "What would you like to drink?" and receiving one word answers that their brain long ago atrophied to the point of being unable to communicate with the rest of the world....

Jim spent multiple posts of this thread trying to convince us that WN offers more value which should justify their higher ticket prices.
Problem is that WN's service OBVIOUSLY is not perceived as being higher value than most network carriers, including in markets directly competitive with DL.

FWAAA can appreciate that DL along with its network peers AA, CO, UA, and US DO offer a different product that does command revenue premiums.
FWAAA apparently DOES understand the dynamics of the industry and doesn't try to pretend that WN is really a better value, unless value is defined as paying less to get less.
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WN is a great airline. No one debated that.
What has been in debate is whether WN will arrive in ATL
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Jim dropped out of the conversation when he realized he couldn't debate the points which were being presented - only to childishly return and mock the responses which he elicited.
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Jim may be a smart guy and do a great job with passengers but he obviously is in over his head trying to debate network and pricing dynamics in the industry.
Not suprisingly, so also are people such as those who can't even figure out the destination of an aircraft.
 
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"Jim spent multiple posts of this thread trying to convince us that WN offers more value which should justify their higher ticket prices.
Problem is that WN's service OBVIOUSLY is not perceived as being higher value than most network carriers, including in markets directly competitive with DL."

WT,

As a point of reference, I fly several times a year between LAS and SAN and ATL and either CHS or SAV. The LAS/SAN trips are on WN and the ATL/CHS or SAV trips are on DL.

Barring bad weather, WN F/A's always do a beverage service and always ask the customer if they can get a second drink as well. It's a 737 and has either 122 or 137 Customers and 3 F/A's.

Never on a DL flight is a beverage served in the back(economy). It's about the same distance. I've been on RJ's, 737's, 757's, A320's and MD-88's. The response is always, this is a short flight no beverage service. If you're up in the front, the F/A's do a pre-departure and another round in flight.

I've got enough status on DL where I get upgraded. For Christmas, I was on flight with by brother and his 4 kids. 2 of the kids were on their first flight, ever. I got upgraded and gave the seat to my brother and sat in the back with the kids, ages 10-16. It was an RJ, there were 2 F/A's and there were 12 F/C seats full up front with upgrades and employee's and 20 folks in the back, leaving about 40 empty seats. The F/A's gave the drinks to F/C and then sat in their seats. My nephew asked for a coke and was told there wasn't enough time for that and also serve the others in the back.

On Christmas.

The perception will beat out any numbers or stats or figure's any day.
 
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I don't doubt for a minute what you say... there are alot of areas where DL's customer service could be better... in the latest JD powers survey they rated AVERAGE. now average is nothing to write home about but it is also enough to keep you in the game. Every parent wants their kids to be above average but someone has to be below - and a whole lot are, well, AVERAGE.
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That said, the discussion here is about whether WN can win over DL passengers and get revenue premiums for it.
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Customer service is great... but the evidence clearly shows that WN DOESN'T command a revenue premium despite its better service and they do not have a dominant share in ANY network carrier hubs.
Further, NO low fare carrier has been able to grow about a 20% share in ANY DL hub.

So, apparently the American public isn't as interested in that extra measure of service which WN gives as much as they are in the package of amenities that DL offers most of which are related to it being a network carrier with all of the corporate contracts, global network, Clown Rooms :), first class cabins, SkyPesos :) and all the other BS that network airlines use to get more revenue compared to their low cost carrier peers....
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When passenger perception of service levels translate into dollars and sense, then Wall Street will probably demand that the network carriers, including change their service levels.
Until then, WN can probably waltz into ATL and offer its service or even what FL has offered and people will still fly DL for all of those "amenities" listed above....
 
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So, apparently the American public isn't as interested in that extra measure of service which WN gives as much as they are in the package of amenities that DL offers ... ... ...that network airlines use to get more revenue compared to their low cost carrier peers....
Like the $2800 extra revenue collected from bag fees of returning GIs.
:lol:
 
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What has been in debate is whether WN will arrive in ATL

WN is giving up on ATL?... Then why did they spend all that money to buy Airtran?....

Jim dropped out of the conversation when he realized he couldn't debate the points which were being presented - only to childishly return and mock the responses which he elicited.

Just because Jim hasn't responded in the past 7 hours means he dropped out of the conversation?

Maybe, unlike you, he has a job, and can't spend all day on internet forums trying to pretend to have all the answers?....

Jim may be a smart guy and do a great job with passengers but he obviously is in over his head trying to debate network and pricing dynamics in the industry.

Not suprisingly, so also are people such as those who can't even figure out the destination of an aircraft.

You apparently can't even figure out that WN is most definitely going to arrive in ATL, so I guess that's the pot calling the kettle black.
 
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WN doesn't fly to ATL, you can't buy a ticket to ATL on WN's website, they don't reference ATL as a destination operated by FL even on their route map on their website, ATL airport does not list WN as a carrier serving the airport.
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WN owns a subsidiary with a hub at ATL but for now the operations are completely separated.
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If you could accurately focus on the industry discussions at hand instead of your incessant childish attempts at defaming other people, you might actually be able to contribute something to this forum.
 
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WT, you crack me up with the hair splitting sometimes. You said "whether WN will arrive at ATL" and there is no question if you actually read what Gary Kelly has said. FL is being assimilated, and they're targeting YE for the customer day one. Had you said "when WN will arrive" you might have looked a little more credible in your last response.

The whole "let's look at history" argument is weak, because this is not a normal transaction. WN normally enters a city with one or two gates, and grows incrementally by 8-10 flights at a time. This time, assuming they don't try to reduce their footprint, they're going to have access to some 32 gates, and they're inheriting a customer base.

32 gates is simply huge. To put it in perspective:

~25% more than WN has at MDW (243 flights) PHX (195 flights), or BWI (200 flights) (all three airports have ~26 gates), which are their largest non-hubs.

~2x more than WN has at DAL (~14 today and 130 flights, with no more than 20 possible gates) and HOU (~17 gates and 138 flights)

~3x more than WN at LAX (~11)

~4x more than WN at SLC (~7)

ATL has 220 FL departures, ~650 DL and ~360 DL* departures.

WN averages between 7.5 (PHX BWI) and 9.2 departures (DAL MDW) departures per gate at their largest airports.

FL averages 6.8 departures per gate at ATL..

Conservatively, WN will be running 240 to 295 departures at ATL depending on how high they crank up the productivity dial. And if they go to the higher value, it will likely negate bringing FL employees up to WN's pay scales and other expense levels. Likely, WN will also be able to renegotiate or even buy out some leases given their much better credit worthiness.

That's a higher ratio than the current situation at SLC, where WN only runs 40 departures to DL's 78 + 190 DL* (27% vs 15% @SLC on a per departure basis, higher on an ASM basis at SLC because of all the RJs; RJs help balance out ASMs at ATL to be comparable to departures when you figure the widebodies).

I'm not going to channel "they're coming to kill US", but you simply can't ignore the scale that the ATL operation will be on CD1. Nor can you try to draw conclusions on how WN has entered into a slot constrained airport like LGA, or gate constrained airport like BOS.
 
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problem w/ all of your calculations is that not even WN's PR machine has issued a hub size as large as you want to believe...
but just like everything else, let's check back in a few years and see how well WN is doing in ATL....
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and no, WN has not arrived in ATL... that is not hair-splitting.. that is the reality.. they do not codeshare on any FL flights, they do not advertise in ATL, they do not have any presence in ATL other than via their subsidiary - which is being operated on the same basis as it has been for the past 10 years or more - the same way that they have been managed that has allowed DL to maintain a 4-5 to 1 size difference.

when things start to change, you can let me know...right now, predictions of WN's rapid growth and success beyond what they have in FL at DL's expense are simply not based in any sense of reality.
Attempting to throw out established history for both WN and DL for the sake of creating a world that neither has predicted will come true only satisfies your desires.
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Those of us who live in the world of the real and tangible are more interested in what actually develops than dreams that never come to pass.
When WN starts marketing its own services in ATL, I'm sure they will put forth the effort necessary to attempt to move the market in their direction. But reality also shows -one which you and others don't seem to want to accept - is that WN has really got into a fight with a network carrier because those kinds of fights are not profitable for WN - and there are dozens of opportunities to grow WITHOUT getting into fights.
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DL will defend its turf. WN will have a presence in ATL... whether it is larger than the 15% or so that WN has no is the question that remains to be seen.
I seriously doubt we will see WN ever obtain much more market share than FL already has....
 
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Guess maybe Delta shouldn't be as scared as some of you would have liked !

"Can't Call Southwest a Discount Airline These Days !"

"High fuel prices, the end of lucrative fuel hedges and a changing route network have led Southwest to push its prices up dramatically, faster than many other airlines. With last-minute fares of more than $1,000 round-trip in long-haul markets, some nonrefundable fares over $900 and average prices in some markets higher than competitors, it's hard to call Southwest a "discount" carrier anymore.

Southwest's average ticket price has jumped.............. 39% .............in the past five years, while the average ticket price for domestic trips for the industry was up 10%, according to the Department of Transportation."

http://finance.yahoo.com/banking-budgeting/article/112851/cant-call-southwest-discount-airlines-wsj

And so much for the "We don't charge you extra for bags" campaign ! Nope, we just charge you more for the ticket !

Lets not forget the Delta and Legacy tactic, since some have Alzheimer's and are doomed to repeat their groundhog day-lower fares to rock bottom to drive out competition then raise fares to 1011.99%!

Flaw with that theory is that if you don't eliminate the competition it's an ongoing battle. Me thinks that by the time Delta drives Southwest out of Atlanta :lol: :lol: :lol: almost said that with a straight face :lol: Delta will have to charge moon fares!