JCBA Negotiations and updates for AA Fleet

[WeAAsles]

Oh and Crema don't really know how you can say we haven't benefitted from the merger? Since the BK and then merger were announced I've gone from about 43k in base wages to now 63k.

And with all the hiring they've been doing systemwide on the TWU side and particularly in my Station I've been shooting up like a rocket on nitrogen with seniority.

I think you've lost a little focus there?

 

[WeAAsles]

And so what if right now LUS has a little more iceing on top of the cake than I do. I think overall they had a lot more years eating no cake at all than I did.

We'll get our icing eventually but for now how about enjoying the cake?

(Profit Sharing check up to bat next)

 

[CremaDiLimone]

Ok but overall and for the "majority" the Association did look out for the best interests of the "entire" membership.

We're eventually going to all be just one group represented under the JCBA by two Unions with the same language.

You just don't like the decision because you feel if it had been done differently you could have had more of a future possible advantage. But you're focusing on yourself and again not the entire collective.

i agree that the association is working for all of us. my beef is with the twu, prior to the association forming. in fact, based on the twu's total body of work, i may feel a bit more confident with iam big-shooters negotiating for me.

no, it's too easy to say that i have an issue because i didn't move up in seniority. it's not about me. i just told you that you got passed in seniority by legacy us air fscs - some who may have acquired seniority in a manner that's ok with you, though, the same manner that me and others were denied....and you're telling me that those twu members negatively affected should let it go??

you argue the entire collective? prior to the association, the 'collective' was american airlines twu members. that's it. that is who i am arguing for. guys who worked at aa in 1980s-90s as aa made money and our competition america west filed bk in the 90s and us air twice in early 2000s? so, now these former competitors at struggling companies jump ahead of legacy aa fscs?

frankly, i don't understand your argument. i understand the gist of what you're telling me, but not the crux of supporting your argument.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

Oh and Crema don't really know how you can say we haven't benefitted from the merger? Since the BK and then merger were announced I've gone from about 43k in base wages to now 63k.

And with all the hiring they've been doing systemwide on the TWU side and particularly in my Station I've been shooting up like a rocket on nitrogen with seniority.

I think you've lost a little focus there?

i did not say 'we', as in legacy aa, have not benefited. i just said we did. we all did. i am aware of my wage jump.

can you tell me what a legacy us air fsc was making prior to merger and now? i guarantee you the gap is larger than $20k. i don't begrudge them for that, we have all benefited.

so, legacy us air got a larger pay jump and get to keep their seniority and merge into an airline with clearly better routes, infrastructure, feeder airlines and equipment and this is an equal deal? so far, great for all, better for legacy us air.

 

[WeAAsles]

i agree that the association is working for all of us. my beef is with the twu, prior to the association forming. in fact, based on the twu's total body of work, i may feel a bit more confident with iam big-shooters negotiating for me.

no, it's too easy to say that i have an issue because i didn't move up in seniority. it's not about me. i just told you that you got passed in seniority by legacy us air fscs - some who may have acquired seniority in a manner that's ok with you, though, the same manner that me and others were denied....and you're telling me that those twu members negatively affected should let it go??

you argue the entire collective? prior to the association, the 'collective' was american airlines twu members. that's it. that is who i am arguing for. guys who worked at aa in 1980s-90s as aa made money and our competition america west filed bk in the 90s and us air twice in early 2000s? so, now these former competitors at struggling companies jump ahead of legacy aa fscs?

frankly, i don't understand your argument. i understand the gist of what you're telling me, but not the crux of supporting your argument.

You can hold onto and not let go of anything you want. We can also go back and forth on the arguments until I'm lying in Hospice with an IV in my arm until I turn my head and gasp my last breath.

But the facts of the situation and situations still aren't going to change and that's something you can either chose to live with or let disturb you again till the end of the ride.

Honestly I'm just the kind of guy who chooses to shrug my shoulders about the things that have happened in my life that don't particularly please me.

Again you can go through any process that makes you feel comfortable to try and change the outcome of the decision but taking say the Kasher decision from 2001. That was Arbitrated, then attempted to be Litigated and now once again 15 years later taken through a mutually agreed to Arbitration one more time. And once again, no changes.

No I really don't care if some individuals went behind me, in front of me or are walking by my side. Just the same as I'm not going to sweat if you have prettier bushes in front of your house or added an extension to put in your foozeball table and classic PAC Man machine.

It's just really no skin off my Banana.

 

[WeAAsles]

i did not say 'we', as in legacy aa, have not benefited. i just said we did. we all did. i am aware of my wage jump.

can you tell me what a legacy us air fsc was making prior to merger and now? i guarantee you the gap is larger than $20k. i don't begrudge them for that, we have all benefited.

so, legacy us air got a larger pay jump and get to keep their seniority and merge into an airline with clearly better routes, infrastructure, feeder airlines and equipment and this is an equal deal? so far, great for all, better for legacy us air.

Again so what. God Bless those guys. Many of them went through one hell of a ringer and in the end finally made it out clean on the other side.

Should I be jealous of you if maybe you got a bigger wanker than me? Maybe did better on your finances? Married yourself a chick that makes guys walk into trees when they turn their heads to check out her gorgeous rump?

I just don't get this I'm better than you, you're better than me contest. As the Valley Girls used to say:

"Whatever"

 

[WeAAsles]

Hey Robbed if you're still floating around on here, hope you enjoyed your Hollidays man?

Spend some of that Double Time Gold you got on a warm Old Navy Fleece over there in BWI.

Living here in S Florida I'm not jealous of you where you're at and I'm not looking to trade places with you either.

Brrrrrr.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

the kashner decision is not relevant. twa was acquired, that was no merger. anything twa was secondary to the whims of aa. what is ironic about that is that the twa people kept their 'company seniority', which angered some top aa people...as they now lost christmas and 4th of july vc.

the twa hopefuls who sued for their seniority, would have been out on the street without a pension, if aa didn't acquire them. they lost, i can sleep at night. they were even given a piece of candy with station protection...etc.

you're telling me that because you believe you aren't negatively affected (which you are), you don't care. that isn't what a union is all about to all dues-payers and does sound a bit selfish. i know you mean well and i don't believe you are a selfish person, but i certainly believe you are holding the wrong end of the stick on this.

what i would like to see is an iam big-shooter post here and tell me i'm all wrong about the seniority narrative. so far, i haven't and i base my argument on what the twu and former legacy us air fscs have told me.

believe me, it would be a relief if i was holding the wrong end of the stick.

 

[WeAAsles]

the kashner decision is not relevant. twa was acquired, that was no merger. anything twa was secondary to the whims of aa. what is ironic about that is that the twa people kept their 'company seniority', which angered some top aa people...as they now lost christmas and 4th of july vc.

the twa hopefuls who sued for their seniority, would have been out on the street without a pension, if aa didn't acquire them. they lost, i can sleep at night. they were even given a piece of candy with station protection...etc.

you're telling me that because you believe you aren't negatively affected (which you are), you don't care. that isn't what a union is all about to all dues-payers and does sound a bit selfish. i know you mean well and i don't believe you are a selfish person, but i certainly believe you are holding the wrong end of the stick on this.

what i would like to see is an iam big-shooter post here and tell me i'm all wrong about the seniority narrative. so far, i haven't and i base my argument on what the twu and former legacy us air fscs have told me.

believe me, it would be a relief if i was holding the wrong end of the stick.

Alright man. Check out my Avatar. That should tell you how I stand on it all? It's "The Dude" himself. You're really starting to remind me of the "Big" guy here in this scene asking me if you peed on my rug yelling at me to get a job.

 

[CremaDiLimone]

Again so what. God Bless those guys. Many of them went through one hell of a ringer and in the end finally made it out clean on the other side.

so what?

some posters have told you that SO FAR: legacy us air fscs have benefited more that legacy aa fscs from this merger and you reject that by telling us how much money legacy aa fsc makes now.

ok..

when it's pointed out that legacy us air fscs have gotten bigger pay raises and kept their seniority...that doesn't count towards the argument?

i don't begrudge legacy us air fscs. i'm the type that wants dl and ua guys to make $35 an hour, because i realize that is where we will go. if you use the aa pay increase to bolster your argument, you have to accept the bigger pay raises and kept seniority that bolsters the other argument; that so far, legacy us air fscs have benefited more than legacy aa fscs.

 

[WeAAsles]

so what?

some posters have told you that SO FAR: legacy us air fscs have benefited more that legacy aa fscs from this merger and you reject that by telling us how much money legacy aa fsc makes now.

ok..

when it's pointed out that legacy us air fscs have gotten bigger pay raises and kept their seniority...that doesn't count towards the argument?

i don't begrudge legacy us air fscs. i'm the type that wants dl and ua guys to make $35 an hour, because i realize that is where we will go. if you use the aa pay increase to bolster your argument, you have to accept the bigger pay raises and kept seniority that bolsters the other argument; that so far, legacy us air fscs have benefited more than legacy aa fscs.

The Dude has left the room.

 

[robbedagain]

appreciate it all thanks

 

[NYer]

well, let's look at it this way..

fsc crandall was hired in 1985 as a fueler. twu job, paid dues. left fueling for title 3 fsc in 1989. been paying twu dues for 31 years. twu and javits say his seniority is 1989.

fsc parker was hired by piedmont in 1986, hired by us air in 1990. got to keep 1/2 seniority and was gifted 1988 seniority since 1990. iam and javits say his seniority is 1988. twu says, "ok, no problem, let's form an association".

fsc parker is now 400 spots ahead of fsc crandall system-wide and 75 spots ahead of him at the same station.

if this is true, i have a problem with this.

Understand your point. Are you aware the LUS PTer accrued 50% of seniority than a FTer?

That being the case, if they followed through with giving them credit for that time they would jump over many of the TWU Members as we as many of their own IAM Members. Would that also be OK with you?

 

[CremaDiLimone]

are you saying you understand my point or that i need to understand my point?

yes, i'm aware of legacy us air PT seniority accrual. yes, that is also a gripe for them. i would be a hypocrite if i said, "who cares".

if anything, i like that seniority rule. FT work and status should be incentivized. legacy aa has many PTers who are self-employed or the spouses of self-employed. they come in 2-3 days a week for health insurance. nice in the age of obamacare.

do we want jobs and our quality of work life catered for part-time workers?

 

[NYer]

are you saying you understand my point or that i need to understand my point?

yes, i'm aware of legacy us air PT seniority accrual. yes, that is also a gripe for them. i would be a hypocrite if i said, "who cares".

if anything, i like that seniority rule. FT work and status should be incentivized. legacy aa has many PTers who are self-employed or the spouses of self-employed. they come in 2-3 days a week for health insurance. nice in the age of obamacare.

do we want jobs and our quality of work life catered for part-time workers?

I'm saying that I understand your point.

I also understand your point of view on the PT issue, but I'm sure many of the current IAM FTers that were PTers would not agree and would want credit for their entire time worked. If that happened, as well as your suggestion, the lists at each airline would not look anything like they do today and after 3 decades of having someone behind me, all of a sudden they're in front of me. This point isn't even about the integration as the current list would be jumbled.

The main goal of the Neutral in this case, was to abide by the seniority rules we have all lived under and try to mesh two lists together in a manner that would least affect the majority. There is no perfect solution and this is just about the most even-handed manner in which to integrate two lists with such different seniority histories.